2024 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[chasfh]

8 hours ago, alex said:

All IMHO.

A good interview. SHarris is passionate about his job. He is intelligent. I never doubted these things. We all learn/remember as we go along in any profession.

Three things for me I am concerned with:

1) is he and this FO , are they, able to 'negotiate' trades. AA was not (but some strength in other areas). DD was/is. Heck, he even put together 3 team deals (he may be less adapt in another area). There is a knack for this process. I remember during his first off season during his interview at the Winter Meetings on MLB Network, Harris said 'something' to the effect that he 'was working on 10 trades.' He of course was half joking and did chuckle while saying that - but I think he also serious and further realized that they just do not happen (shortly after he acquired JHM). He admitted that it was very hard to make trades.

2) The 'control the zone approach'. Again, I do agree here. Some will be better than others at this. I feel most any player should take a good course on this so to speak. Yet, again it is not for each player all the time. This team has taken to many first pitch middle-middle FBs. Then we are in the hole. We have seen this. This total approach is not for every player and maybe we will see an adjustment. I also feel if you are drafting, trading and/or signing FAs based only on this - you will be tying your hands (so to speak) and perhaps missing out on a quality player that can help.

3) I get the 'develop a core' idea. Maybe he wants 'his' guys (some ego here if that is the case) - but if an opportunity presents itself, example this off seasons FAs, and there is a player that might help for a period of time (whether 1 to multi years) and we have a chance to sign said player, they need to look at him.

As I have mentioned before, the 'right'  FAs/Trades do not just wait until a team has a young core in place. They just do not magically appear and come to you. If he/the FO feels there is a chance to acquire talent at a position of need I would be hopeful they try to act on it. This is where projection takes place. With said I am not big on multi year deals (ex 3+ years), especially for SPs.  I like Harris' SP approach and feel more GMs/CEOs are changing their minds about this. P is sooo volatile and injuries often a part of this. I think the shorter AAV is becoming more the way to go.

There is a lot of just plain old luck involved with this. Yet, opportunity favors the prepared.

Simply - there is a lot to this. We here know this. Yet, we are fans. SHarris said he also is a fan. He says he has to separate that part of himself and be professional - I agree and commend. However, we are on multiple years of 'looking to be relevant' again. He is not.

IMHO, we have to continue to be patient and he/the FO have to be opportunistic, learn the 'art of negotiating' and not be overly restrictive in their own beliefs (this helps one grow).

Go Tigs !

1) I think Harris has already made a few good trades. Unless you mean scrubs-for-All Stars trades?

2) Controlling the zone is all about getting yourself in a position to get good pitches  by not swinging at bad pitches. I think every hitter can benefit from that.

3) I think Harris wants “his” guys because the other guy’s guys mostly suck. I don’t think it’s because Harris “has an ego”. I think it’s because he wants to build a winner.

[gehringer_2]

16 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I might be the only one here who thinks Wenceel is just passing through, versus being a cog on the next playoff team. His offensive numbers have a little BABIP helium in them, and he has no position to play here with a glove like his. Beyond this, his Savant card is awash in blue. I just don’t think he has much of a chance to be more than Mr. Right Now.

Agree that Perez's productivity leaves much to be desired (Lee has also noted this) - to this point. My only defense of Wenceel that his performance trajectory, rather than rapidly falling with time in the majors like most guys who wash out, is *so far* holding up, maybe even trending up, so there may still be growth into greater productivity. We are still in SSS territory - it could be clear next week he is beginning to hit the wall so to speak, but until then I think you have to give him rope - or at least I would as a GM. If it came down to a choice  I'd at least give him any PAs the org may be thinking about giving Baddoo. Conversely I think sort of a major swing change or something, Akil has shown his limit.

Edited June 26 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

Agree that Perez's productivity leaves much to be desired (Lee has also noted this) - to this point. My only defense of Wenceel that his performance trajectory, rather than rapidly falling with time in the majors like most guys who wash out, is *so far* holding up, maybe even trending up, so there may still be growth into greater productivity. We are still in SSS territory - it could be clear next week he is beginning to hit the wall so to speak, but until then I think you have to give him rope - or at least I would as a GM.

Like I say, Wenceel is Mr. Right Now, so he’s in no danger of the GM yanking the rope away. But I am not penciling him in on the 2027 division winners, not even as a fourth outfielder.

[alex]

58 minutes ago, chasfh said:

1) I think Harris has already made a few good trades. Unless you mean scrubs-for-All Stars trades?

2) Controlling the zone is all about getting yourself in a position to get good pitches  by not swinging at bad pitches. I think every hitter can benefit from that.

3) I think Harris wants “his” guys because the other guy’s guys mostly suck. I don’t think it’s because Harris “has an ego”. I think it’s because he wants to build a winner.

1) I agree he has made a couple. Yet, I bet Dombrowski was the driving force with the two Philadelphia deals. DD ID players he wanted. We then picked out what could possibly work. I am hoping Harris can do this when the time comes for us. IMHO, you do not have to be in a 'win' now mode to make a trade for a good player.

2) I agree with both observations you made about what this can mean. However, is the 'control the zone' approach hurting some of our hitters by taking too many middle-middle first pitches? I saw Philly swinging often and early in this series. It had been mentioned by CPena, Gibby, Cmo, etc. The stats showed it as of one month ago. We may be letting too many good first pitch middle-middle pitches go by. Controlling the zone should not mean taking 'good' first pitches to hit. BTW, I am not thinking you are saying that and experience does help.

I will ask does this 'philosophy' eliminate certain players from being targets that we could acquire? Would we even look at a very good hitter who does not walk a lot but has the ability to drive the ball and drive in runs? History has many good players like this.

3) We all have egos, the other guy's guys suck - that is one opinion. Greene, Skubal, Keith, Perez, Jung, Tork, Dingler, Olson, etc. all the other guy's - guys. I would not give up on them... They preach patience - well that includes this group also.

The control the zone group that Harris has added includes: Maton, Solak, McKinstry, Nevin, Kennedy, Vilade, Rizzo, Sands, etc. - not exactly the previous group. Yes, there is roster churn, all teams have it... Point is can this FO identify a guy and go trade for him? Not a waiver wire claim or we have so and so available at the deadline and we get a list from another team. ID a 'guy'. Add a prospect or two to sweeten the trade pot (does not have to be a Top 5 per say) and get a 'guy' who might become a 'core' player. This FO hopefully can do this. Yes, draft and develop is first and foremost but deals will need to be made as well.

Again, all good with the improvements: scouting, player development, fitness/nutrition/rest/psychology, international attempts, facility upgrades, etc. - all good.

Edited June 26 by alex

[RandyMarsh]

3 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Skubal is fantastic.  The only question is his durability.  He has an extensive injury historyand still hasn't been good for a full season yet.  I am however not interested in seeing him traded.  It always depends on who they can get in return, but trading established players for prospects at the deadline seems to backfire more often than it works.  

This. Not saying Skubal doesn't look more impressive than Fulmer but for every Verlander trade where the prospects don't pan out there is a Fulmer instance where you keep the young pitcher and he ends up flaming out due to injuries. 

That's why I'm on the fence about the potential Skubal trade, I could see both sides of it, but I will say IF they do trade him I certainly would like the headliner to be more of a sure thing and closer to the big leagues than a 19 year old pitcher with only a half year of success like Franklin Perez was in the JV trade. 

[Tenacious D]

The JV trade was a very different situation. As you’ll recall, we had to pay part of his salary.  Skubal is younger and cheaper—he would command a bigger return.  As much as we’d like to have MLB ready to go guys in return, most contenders won’t want to weaken or disrupt their rosters unless they are trading from some depth.  At best, we could hope for AAA/AA guys who are ready but maybe have been blocked.  That’s why the Orioles make so much sense as a potential partner.  They are going to make the playoffs—Skubal can help them win a World Series championship.

[holygoat]

On 6/25/2024 at 12:59 PM, oblong said:

All an owner can do is hire people and let them do their job and spend when called upon and get rid of those executives when they show to not be doing their job.  Has Chris not shown that ability?   Yeah, he didnt "go after" Ohtani.  Get real.  On one hand people are complaining about Baez and his contract and on the other people are complaining about the owner being cheap.

The team has made significant behind the scenes improvements and hired expensive people in the front office, the kind of hires that most fans would never know happened, and I throw in Jason Benetti in that conversation.  If Chris just wanted to bank the cash from owning an ML team he wouldn't have approved those hires.  Take a look at the media guide and you can see who they are.   

Cool. We just disagree. I want an aggressive owner who hires an aggressive GM to build around their stud starting pitcher like the last time the Tigers were good. Prospects are great until they aren't.

[oblong]

3 hours ago, holygoat said:

Cool. We just disagree. I want an aggressive owner who hires an aggressive GM to build around their stud starting pitcher like the last time the Tigers were good. Prospects are great until they aren't.

I don’t disagree. But right now we are in the build phase.  And Skubal is that ace. I’ve said multiple times I am against trading him unless it’s for ML all star quality talent. No prospects.   

[holygoat]

6 minutes ago, oblong said:

I don’t disagree. But right now we are in the build phase.  And Skubal is that ace. I’ve said multiple times I am against trading him unless it’s for ML all star quality talent. No prospects.   

I'm open to trading Skubal for high-end return. My comment about prospects was about our current prospects, though. I'm open to trading anyone in our system for proven MLB studs, because I think the farm system should be as much about flipping prospects to improve immediate weaknesses as it is developing players for the team's future. "Go with the kids to see what you've got" rarely works -- you need good vets around to carry the kids through their inevitable slumps as they attempt to make the biggest transition they will ever try to make. That's why I wanted Ililtch/Harris to acquire a couple of good hitters over the winter, and why I want them to do so this winter. 

[Motor City Sonics]

My Nightmare Future post from August 1, 2024

 

Seattle's 9th and 15th ranked prospects is all we got for Skubal?    And one of those guys is injury prone and the other is a strikeout-prone left-handed hitting outfielder.   Wow, Al Avila could have done that. 

 

 I just have flashbacks of Jose King/Sergio Alcantara/Dawel Lugo to this day.     

 

Losing faith in Harris every day.   I know I need patience and that it takes a new exec at least 3 years to start showing, but nothing so far is indicated that much has really changed.   I mean, couldn't find a viable backup shortstop?  A real shortstop, you know, in case Javy got hurt.  No one?  Anywhere?   A cast-off?  A veteran looking for one more shot?   Nope.          I've already lost faith in Hinch.  I just don't buy it with him.   Why does it matter if McKinstry is left handed if he doesn't hit at all?   What is this love affair with this guy?   He's not even that great defensively.   Too much Smartest Guy in the Room stuff with him.   Ever work for a micro-manager?   Not a lot of fun, is it?  

[Motor City Sonics]

I remember the moment I really started doubting A.J. Hinch was last season when Andy Ibanez hit 2 HR in a game and then the genius yanked him for a pinch hitter.    That really pissed me off.   Put the computer down and watch the game, Andy's in a groove tonight, let him be.  

[RatkoVarda]

Willi Castro is on pace for 5+ WAR for the ***** Twins; would like to hear Harris & Co explain what they missed when he walked out the door for nothing.

[1776]

Not really sure where to put this:

Related to Minor Leagues
 

‘Now, every single game, no matter which day of the week it’s scheduled, will have balls and strikes called by the home plate umpire. Teams are still allowed to challenge calls, however, instead of being able to do so three times, it’s been decreased to only two.’

I like this. Going fully with the challenge system but reducing the challenges by one. I listened to the Durham Bulls game last night and it is obvious that the reduction in challenges is going to force the  challenger to think twice before challenging a call. Durham lost both challenges by the middle of the game. Not good. 
 

[gehringer_2]

33 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

Willi Castro is on pace for 5+ WAR for the ***** Twins; would like to hear Harris & Co explain what they missed when he walked out the door for nothing.

Of course the worse case read is that Willi only blossomed when he got out from under the pressure of worrying over whether he was going to raked over every pitch he swung at. I'm not arguing that's the case, but at some point the team needs to show us the kind of success with hitters to prove it wasn't.

The less severe read is that Minn simply had a coach that had the right answer for Willi's LH swing. I'll grant no team can possibly have the right coach for every player, but again - at some point you have to show your coaching hits at least balance out your misses or your staff needs to change. It's a no excuses business. Nobody cares about your theories if they don't make a difference on the field.

Edited June 27 by gehringer_2

[1776]

3 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

Willi Castro is on pace for 5+ WAR for the ***** Twins; would like to hear Harris & Co explain what they missed when he walked out the door for nothing.

There were too many Mexicans  on the team.

[Tenacious D]

5 minutes ago, 1776 said:

There were too many Mexicans  on the team.

Splitting up the Battlin’ Castro’s has served Willi well.

[casimir]

4 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

Willi Castro is on pace for 5+ WAR for the ***** Twins; would like to hear Harris & Co explain what they missed when he walked out the door for nothing.

Its a data point on Harris' resume.  It won't be all data points in one direction.  Hopefully there's much more to the good than the bad.

I understood dumping him and Candelario.  I don't think it was a black and white decision for either (even Castro who had shown improvement in cutting down SO% and was still young and seemed to have taken to OF).  But in hindsight seeing how they've had success after leaving Detroit, its a not happy feeling.

[tiger2022]

14 hours ago, holygoat said:

I'm open to trading anyone in our system for proven MLB studs

And other team's are going to trade MLB studs for Tiger prospects?

 

[tiger2022]

5 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Of course the worse case read is that Willi only blossomed when he got out from under the pressure of worrying over whether he was going to raked over every pitch he swung at. 

Honestly not being sarcastic at all.  Do you think Hinch is that much of a micro manager?  Would a player get a meeting in his office for swinging at the first pitch?  I know Hinch comes across as a hypocritical, lying POS, but calling out players for going against his wishes on swinging at the first pitch seems even super douchebaggjsh for him.

But I wouldn't put it past him.  And if that is the case it would explain why half the team hits like he did when he was a player.  And it could explain why those guys are not on the team anymore.

Edited June 27 by tiger2022

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

Willi Castro is on pace for 5+ WAR for the ***** Twins; would like to hear Harris & Co explain what they missed when he walked out the door for nothing.

TBF, just about everyone here was screaming for Willi's head his entire last year here, same as Jeimer's head, so ...

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, chasfh said:

TBF, just about everyone here was screaming for Willi's head his entire last year here, same as Jeimer's head, so ...

Of course if Willi had put up the LH OPS with the Tigers he has put up for the Twins, I don't think so many would have been screaming for his head. Heck - I remember thinking he was so lost from the left side I suggested he'd probably be better off overall if he stopped switch hitting. He was already 25 and not showing strong signs he was ever going to get it.

Edited June 28 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Of course if Willi had put up the LH OPS with the Tigers he has put up for the Twins, I don't think so many would have been screaming for his head. Heck - I remember thinking he was so losst from the left side I suggested he'd probably be better off overall if he stopped switch hitting.

He was a win-positive player in 2022 and could have served as a multi-positional depth piece. He was even average in outfield defense, not below average, by multiple measures, despite the moaning and groaning we did about him early that year. And he was defense-positive at 2B. We could use something like that now.

[casimir]

12 minutes ago, chasfh said:

He was a win-positive player in 2022 and could have served as a multi-positional depth piece. He was even average in outfield defense, not below average, by multiple measures, despite the moaning and groaning we did about him early that year. And he was defense-positive at 2B. We could use something like that now.

Skubal for Castro, but maybe there’s some gap to fill in?

[Motor City Sonics]

This team's MVP would obviously be voted as Skubal, but I would argue that it's actually Kerry Carpenter.  

20-20 in games he starts (I think)

17-24  when he didn't start

They were 26-27 until he got injured and they are 11-17 since then.    

 

32-44 since the 5-0 start (3 of those games against the awful White Sox).

 

This is Hinch's 4th year.     He and his staff are not making guys better.     

With Skubal, Olson and Flaherty pitching like this, it's completely unacceptable.  

[kdog]

I don't mind letting young players fail; But right now it creates a dead mlb product. And I know Harris doesn't necessarily care about results because young players are getting reps. But we are essentially running a development camp in the majors, and nobody is showing improvement. I want to know how many years we have to endure a tryout camp.

If it's perpetual, that's fine but we also need to see that he's able to figure out who can play and who can't. The default can't be to give a young guy a shot because free agency or trades or big contracts have risks.