RatkoVarda Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 9 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: In 2025 Spring Training: I don't think they should sign any additional position free agents even after those we have this year walk... Probably the most offensive thing ever posted on MTF. Bigbie? Baddoo? Cruz? Vilade? Navigato? Kreidler? Pure Insanity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 9 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: Some thoughts that I think I'm thinking: I would offer this: In 2025 Spring Training: I don't think they should sign any additional position free agents even after those we have this year walk... Pitching's a different matter, sign whatever's needed to fill out a staff and backups in AAA as necessary. But... IMO: I think 2025 spring training should be a wide open tryout for positions. Lose, and either get sent to AAA (Tork/ Meadows, just as examples), or bought out (Baez) and jettisoned. Catcher: Rogers and Dingler don't have any competition so this is sort of cheating. There's room for both. Any other guys they have are too young (Josue Briseno-19, Enrique Jimenez-18, or Org guys like Crouch, Alphonzo, etc... but those guys can always cover AA and AAA and we can sign a vet AAAA guy like lefty Bemboom just to have extra... So the 1st position I listed is not so much an open competition... sorry. The 2nd position I'll list is... 2B. I'll get to 1B in a minute... but 2B is where there may be a real competition and it's possible a loser here could be sent over to 1B so... this is the next ST position which: should be just as open to Ibanez, as Keith, Jung, and maybe even Hao-Yu Lee. Raking at AA, I think he'll get the invite, even if it's just for a look-see. I don't want to close any doors. What if Keith's shoulder is getting stronger by next year and the team could actually be open to putting him back at 3rd? What if Lee actually steals a roster spot and the team decides he can take a shot at MLB at 2B? Could Jung play 1B? I think both he and Keith should be given 1B gloves and get some practice time to see what sticks. Jung can play in the AFL I believe... can Keith also? Just wondering. 2B to me though, is where the most interesting competition could play out. 1B: Tork either gets it. Or doesn't. If he doesn't, put him back in AAA and let Jung or Keith play 1B. Do we have any other options? I believe Vilade has played some 1B. He's also played all 3 OF spots and 2B and 3B. I'm adamant that he (Vilade) gets a chance at these competitions as well. If all he turns into is a utility guy or a AAAA guy, so be it... but I am in no mood to turn down a guy from entering a competition for a spot. Especially with where we are at 1B... right now. 3B: Whatever the fallout is from Ibanez-Jung-Keith-Vilade-Vierling... will work itself out. SS: I don't give a crap: Give Navigato a chance. Kreidler one more shot. McGonigle and Franyerber are too young at 19 and at Low A or even lower... But Trei Cruz is at AA and playing just well enough... I don't care, give him a shot. We don't have good options here... but unless we get a better one in a trade... I still think Baez has to go. Eat the money, let him go. But I wish we had better competition for his spot. OF: Greene & Carpenter are safe. But aside from those two... the team should call an open competition for remaining spots, both starter and bench. Perez looks good enough to at least be a 4th starter. Maybe with more MLB experience he'll figure out how to make some improvements at the plate... pitchers have figured him out but he's still keeping his head above water.... Meadows looks like he deserves another shot at CF. But there's still Malloy and Vierling and maybe even Baddoo (looks like toast), maybe Bigbie deserves at least a shot. Vilade deserves a shot (IMO). Campos is not ready yet but maybe he gets a ST invite, just for the atmosphere (he should be put on the 40 this offseason...). This year has been mostly... lost. But between this year and next, especially next year... I wanna see which of these guys, if any, look to be a part of a foundation. Whoever doesn't cut it by the end of next year... position-by-position... has to be considered as a hole on the team to be fixed. I wouldn't say that this year because their are too many rookies (Keith/ Malloy/ Perez/ Meadows 1st attempt at a full season and only 37 MLB games last year/ etc...) and guys still at AAA or AA (Jung/ Dingler/Cruz) to get a good read. And with Tork & Meadows flopped so far this year... we don't know how they will come back from being sent back down to AAA. I am hoping we get a much better read/ and better success next year as well of course, to see what a foundation might actually look like. And I'd like that to start next year in Spring Training with a wide open (as much as possible) competition at most positions. The Detroit Tigers are purportedly a major league baseball franchise. I want to know how they could possibly sell tickets with another year of tryout camp. They already have a fanbase that despises ownership and the front office(to a lesser extent). You put together a list including guys who aren't even prospects. This would drive people away for years. We can't build teams in the abstract or in theory. There are financial realities to being this bad for almost 10 years. Edited July 3 by kdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 10 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: I would offer this: In 2025 Spring Training: I don't think they should sign any additional position free agents even after those we have this year walk... No, I don't agree. They need to figure out ways to bring hitting in because they cannot count on enough of it coming from within. They need to look at free agency and trades. What they have returning in house won't be enough to compete in the division. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Nope. Ixne. Lots of tears flowing in here I see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 3 Author Share Posted July 3 11 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: If a guy can throw or hit MLB pitching, anything else he may or may not deserve for any other reason means essentially squat, at least up to where the cops or the commissioners office has be involved. 🤷🏻 I have no idea what you mean by this, but what I am saying is if somebody is not following through on off-the-field coaching, like training or adjustments or things of that nature, it's gonna get found out through his lazy, sloppy, or sub-standard performance, and they're going to lose their job, and boo hoo hoo for them, but they'd deserve it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 12 minutes ago, chasfh said: I have no idea what you mean by this, but what I am saying is if somebody is not following through on off-the-field coaching, like training or adjustments or things of that nature, it's gonna get found out through his lazy, sloppy, or sub-standard performance, and they're going to lose their job, and boo hoo hoo for them, but they'd deserve it. I just mean that if a player doesn’t stay with the program but continues to perform, there aren’t likely to be any repercussions. Good players are just too rare. Maybe a rare management will cut off its nose to spite its face to make a point, but not many, even if it may be his just desserts if he does get hurt. Edited July 3 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 16 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Nope. Ixne. Lots of tears flowing in here I see... Who is crying? There's no hitting on the major league roster and this front office has not shown an ability to draft/develop/coach major league hitting. To be fair, they've only been around for a season and a half. But we've also seen puzzling approaches at the plate, particularly this season. So, I'll believe they can draft/develop/coach hitting when I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 3 Author Share Posted July 3 12 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I just mean that if a player doesn’t stay with the program but continues to perform, there aren’t likely to be any repercussions. Good players are just too rare. Maybe a rare management will cut off its nose to spite its face to make a point, but not many, even if it may be his just desserts if he does get hurt. So you’re talking basically about established All-Star-level players who are going to perform no matter whether they follow the program or not? Yeah, well, I guess that’s fair as far as that goes. And of course they’re not going to follow the plan because kids today, amirite? But that’s not the majority of players. Not even close. Something like two thirds of all players who pass through the major leagues in any given year are 1 WAR or less players. Guys like that are one really bad stretch from losing their entire careers. And when those decisions are made by management, guys who follow the program are going to get a little consideration to see whether they can turn things around than guys who shirk. You may not buy into that idea but that’s just what I believe. Unlike the algorithm for OOTP AI managers that can’t take that into consideration, human managers definitely do. This isn’t high school where the jock can ignore the teacher and never study and they’ll still successfully graduate. This is the one shot at the career marginal players have been dreaming of all their lives. They’ve already worked and sweated and cried for years putting in the extra effort to make it there in the first place. I just can’t see them throwing it all away by repudiating the coaching, and those that do are the exceptions that I believe get weeded out fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 52 minutes ago, casimir said: Who is crying? There's no hitting on the major league roster and this front office has not shown an ability to draft/develop/coach major league hitting. To be fair, they've only been around for a season and a half. But we've also seen puzzling approaches at the plate, particularly this season. So, I'll believe they can draft/develop/coach hitting when I see it. So IMO... It's time to put their development team to the test. 2025: Tryout camp for all the kids from AA up to MLB. Sink... or swim. Whoever can swim, is on the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: So IMO... It's time to put their development team to the test. 2025: Tryout camp for all the kids from AA up to MLB. Sink... or swim. Whoever can swim, is on the team. The problem with that is Tryout camp = Spring Training, which is no indicator of full season success. Edited July 3 by Tenacious D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 Just now, Tenacious D said: The problem with that is Tryout camp = Spring Training, which is no indicator of full season success. Well Spring Training is just to make the opening day roster. I would consider the entire year of 2025 for Harris's (and Hinch's) developmental staff to either get the job done... or not. It may even require a few more AAA-MLB swaps to iron everything out. But either: this Organization is a draft & developmental Org, and successful at it... Or not. I want to see it. And I am perfectly fine with "I'll believe it when I see it"... I agree with that. So, Detroit Tigers/ Harris/ Hinch: show me what you've got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 3 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Well Spring Training is just to make the opening day roster. I would consider the entire year of 2025 for Harris's (and Hinch's) developmental staff to either get the job done... or not. It may even require a few more AAA-MLB swaps to iron everything out. But either: this Organization is a draft & developmental Org, and successful at it... Or not. I want to see it. And I am perfectly fine with "I'll believe it when I see it"... I agree with that. So, Detroit Tigers/ Harris/ Hinch: show me what you've got. Your ideas would ensure a 100+ loss season. As well as set the franchise back 5 years on their current 40 year rebuild. No thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 10 hours ago, Tigermojo said: Flaherty skips his next start after a second injection in his back. Montero will take his spot in the rotation tonight but technically it's Mize's spot because he is going to the IL. Montero can't be recalled so soon otherwise. They hope Flaherty is good to go at home next week and avoids the IL. Potential bullpen day for Mize's spot unless they bring up Manning. Also, Carpenter has been shut back down. He may not be back until next season... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 3 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: Your ideas would ensure a 100+ loss season. As well as set the franchise back 5 years on their current 40 year rebuild. No thanks... Or enough kids could click that we win 100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said: Or enough kids could click that we win 100. your optimism is really impressive, or completely bat-**** insane; probably both they have ONE high-end talent in the top 4 levels of the organization - Riley Greene Carp, Tork, Keith, Jung, Lee, Dingler, Rogers, Ibanez, Vierling, Meadows are all guys who can contribute, some more so than others but winning teams have 3-4 of those guys on them not 10 or 11 assuming that the Tigers actually know how to develop talent - which apparently they do not - the talent available is neither deep or high end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 1 hour ago, chasfh said: So you’re talking basically about established All-Star-level players who are going to perform no matter whether they follow the program or not? Yeah, well, I guess that’s fair as far as that goes. And of course they’re not going to follow the plan because kids today, amirite? But that’s not the majority of players. Not even close. Something like two thirds of all players who pass through the major leagues in any given year are 1 WAR or less players. Guys like that are one really bad stretch from losing their entire careers. And when those decisions are made by management, guys who follow the program are going to get a little consideration to see whether they can turn things around than guys who shirk. You may not buy into that idea but that’s just what I believe. Unlike the algorithm for OOTP AI managers that can’t take that into consideration, human managers definitely do. This isn’t high school where the jock can ignore the teacher and never study and they’ll still successfully graduate. This is the one shot at the career marginal players have been dreaming of all their lives. They’ve already worked and sweated and cried for years putting in the extra effort to make it there in the first place. I just can’t see them throwing it all away by repudiating the coaching, and those that do are the exceptions that I believe get weeded out fast. By that time they’ve also had a hundred coaches give them conflicting advice about hundreds of things. The fact that a player ignores or rejects a lot coaching doesn’t have to say he’s unserious, just that he has likely already spent his life sifting through what he believes works for him may be justifiably skeptical of any teams theories de jure, even if it may be good stuff. Its especially hard to prove that to guys until you have success to point to. The tigers actually have some of that kind of cred on the pitching, have zero on the hitting side. Edited July 3 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 This is clearly an evaluation year. I don't want to sit through another one next season. Harris needs to add a couple established bats somehow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 3 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: By that time they’ve also had a hundred coaches give them conflicting advice about hundreds of things. The fact that a player ignores or rejects a lot coaching doesn’t have to say he’s unserious, just that he has likely already spent his life sifting through what he believes works for him may be justifiably skeptical of any teams theories de jure, even if it may be good stuff. Its especially hard to prove that to guys until you have success to point to. The tigers actually have some of that kind of cred on the pitching, have zero on the hitting side. They do have swing path data now so maybe that will change. It would probably be awhile before we see results though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 16 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: This is clearly an evaluation year. I don't want to sit through another one next season. Harris needs to add a couple established bats somehow. Agree—this season is the tryout camp. There will be a few guys that deserve or require more runway (Keith and Perez come to mind). I suspect that Meadows will get another shot soon, and maybe Tork comes back later in the season. 2024 is the evaluation season—it might not translate into actual performance, but hopefully will give the org the insight they require. Of course, barring trades, we should see Jung and Dingler next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 10 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: Agree—this season is the tryout camp. There will be a few guys that deserve or require more runway (Keith and Perez come to mind). I suspect that Meadows will get another shot soon, and maybe Tork comes back later in the season. 2024 is the evaluation season—it might not translate into actual performance, but hopefully will give the org the insight they require. Of course, barring trades, we should see Jung and Dingler next season. Based on rookie years for Malloy, Keith, Perez... And Tork & Meadows currently in AAA... and probably getting at least one more chance... (and even Vilade and Navigato... what if these guys are nothing but utility guys... but are BETTER than Kreidler and McKinstry... doesn't that count...?) Eddys Leonard & Bigbie too... And Jung and Dingler not yet exposed to MLB (still in AAA at this point)... And a couple AA guys who have an outside chance of contributing in MLB in 2025 (Lee & Cruz), IMO... And a crapload of pitchers in AA or AAA trying to figure out whether they can push for a rotation spot sometime in 2025 (Jobe, Manning) or are simply middle relievers in MLB (Montero, Madden, Flores, Hurter, Lockhart, etc...) or will completely flop out (is Englert good? or NOT good???) or maybe even should be tried as a closer (Manning?)... And a few 2nd or 3rd-ish year guys trying to prove themselves and their position/ upside/ role in MLB (Olson, Brieske, Faedo, even Greene is a guy I feel should be better than he is right now and I expect improvements this year and next year, and Mize too really...), I'm calling Wentz a most-likely-flop-out... I think this is a 2-year tryout. That may not be popular. But that's how I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerbomb13 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 This franchise may lose a lot of fans permanently if we trot out a lineup all but guaranteed to lose 110+ games next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gilmore Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 What, Tigerbomb, you don’t think Cruz has an outside chance to be in MLB in 2025? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 53 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: Agree—this season is the tryout camp. There will be a few guys that deserve or require more runway (Keith and Perez come to mind). I suspect that Meadows will get another shot soon, and maybe Tork comes back later in the season. 2024 is the evaluation season—it might not translate into actual performance, but hopefully will give the org the insight they require. Of course, barring trades, we should see Jung and Dingler next season. I don't have a problem giving the kids time to develop. I would like to see them get two legitimate power guys to complement Greene and Carpenter. Instead of Urshela and Canha get guys with real power and previous success. As far as positions, that will work itself out. Hinch being Hinch, he's going to play guys all over and in different batting orders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerbomb13 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Dan Gilmore said: What, Tigerbomb, you don’t think Cruz has an outside chance to be in MLB in 2025? If he does, heaven help us all. Maybe he can be a poor man’s McKinstry? Edited July 3 by Tigerbomb13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said: Or enough kids could click that we win 100. Maybe we could field a little league team and see how many become stars? Hall of Fame players have to start somewhere, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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