2024 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[tiger2022]

Spring training has never been a tryout camp ever.  It os preseason to help get the people that are going to make the roster in shape.  At most, there might be a bullpen position up for grabs and maybe one position player spot that can be decided.  They know what the regular season roster will be before spring training starts.

[1984Echoes]

32 minutes ago, Dan Gilmore said:

What, Tigerbomb, you don’t think Cruz has an outside chance to be in MLB in 2025? 

Maybe just as a utility guy.

It doesn't change the narrative.

[1984Echoes]

27 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

Maybe we could field a little league team and see how many become stars? Hall of Fame players have to start somewhere, right?

So you're calling Greene and Keith and Jung and everyone else little leaguers?

You should tell them that.

Personally.

[1984Echoes]

37 minutes ago, Tigerbomb13 said:

This franchise may lose a lot of fans permanently if we trot out a lineup all but guaranteed to lose 110+ games next year.  

They're not all but guaranteed anything.

Not lose 110, not win 110.

But you already know that.

[casimir]

2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

So IMO...

It's time to put their development team to the test.

2025: Tryout camp for all the kids from AA up to MLB.

Sink... or swim.

Whoever can swim, is on the team.

OK, but here is part of the issue at hand.  This organization has been going through sink or swim evaluation for too many seasons in a row.  I understand the front office has been turned over.  What happened prior shouldn't necessarily be on the current's resume.  But the current organization needs to understand that this fan base has been through enough of a stretch of uncompetitive baseball.

@chasfh astutely went through a laundry list of things that didn't work this season (must be in another thread), a list where if those reasonable possibilities were more 50/50 rather than 20/80, then we're probably in a better mood today.  Too many things went wrong as opposed to neutral or right.  OK, fine, that's baseball, it happens.  But you can't build upon that disappointment with another season of disappointment, a scheduled season of wait and see without addressing known and reasonably anticipated weaknesses during this upcoming offseason.  I doubt they could do enough shopping this offseason to acquire too much talent.  Should that happen, I think they can move out some current for future.

I understand Harris' desire to build this organization with deeper roots to acquire and develop better than in the past.  I appreciate that, I implore that, we should all be happy with that.  At the same time, the current needs to be addressed.  I sometimes question whether or not the current front office understands what the fan base has lived through.  Sure, they can look at losing record after losing record after losing record.  But does that really resonate with folks that have not been living the entirety of it?  I don't want to hear about personal competitive natures on a friendly podcast.  Show me that nature by building sooner and later.

[1984Echoes]

I think that's part of the point... or maybe the key point.

Everyone in here is looking at the team from a fans perspective.

I mean... obviously.

But as a GM: 

I want to know which of these kids (in MLB, rookie or otherwise; in AAA, or in AAA after struggling in MLB; pitching in AAA and where they might end up in MLB (starter, middle, or late-reliever...); or even in AA (Jobe, Lee, etc...)) I should start counting on, on the "foundation" side of the ledger. And all of these guys are high enough up in the ORG that it's time to see what we have with them. One way or the other.

I ALSO, as a GM, want to put my developmental guys, especially at the AAA and MLB level, through a stress test. And THIS is the time to do that. Right now. In 2024-25.

From a GM's perspective: I KNOW that this would be a MAJOR pisser for fans.... but IMO, I think it just needs to be done. I would be open with the fans too: "2025 is make or break for these kids. Even if they don't hit their eventual high-points, we need to know if they have enough future to be a part of the solution, or not. Whatever holes we feel we have after 2025, we will look for the best possible MLB solution to drop onto our roster. It takes two to tango of course, but whether it's a top of the rotation starter, a closer, a position player, a SS, WHOMEVER, I will implore Chris Ilitch to put best available resources (biggest money FA, trade for a big contract, whatever) into building around whomever we feel should be a part of this team going forward."

That's just my 2 cents. And my locked-in position as well.

[chasfh]

53 minutes ago, casimir said:

OK, but here is part of the issue at hand.  This organization has been going through sink or swim evaluation for too many seasons in a row.  I understand the front office has been turned over.  What happened prior shouldn't necessarily be on the current's resume.  But the current organization needs to understand that this fan base has been through enough of a stretch of uncompetitive baseball.

@chasfh astutely went through a laundry list of things that didn't work this season (must be in another thread), a list where if those reasonable possibilities were more 50/50 rather than 20/80, then we're probably in a better mood today.  Too many things went wrong as opposed to neutral or right.  OK, fine, that's baseball, it happens.  But you can't build upon that disappointment with another season of disappointment, a scheduled season of wait and see without addressing known and reasonably anticipated weaknesses during this upcoming offseason.  I doubt they could do enough shopping this offseason to acquire too much talent.  Should that happen, I think they can move out some current for future.

I understand Harris' desire to build this organization with deeper roots to acquire and develop better than in the past.  I appreciate that, I implore that, we should all be happy with that.  At the same time, the current needs to be addressed.  I sometimes question whether or not the current front office understands what the fan base has lived through.  Sure, they can look at losing record after losing record after losing record.  But does that really resonate with folks that have not been living the entirety of it?  I don't want to hear about personal competitive natures on a friendly podcast.  Show me that nature by building sooner and later.

Yeah, that whole thing in that podcast about just how competitive Scott Harris is on a personal basis just rang hollow, mainly because it is so tediously unremarkable in an industry defined by its competitiveness.

I appreciate Harris's plan and I think it's flaling not because it's a bad plan, but because so many things we all thought we could reasonably count on went so spectacularly wrong. The man is in a tight spot, and I sympathize with his situation because I believe it's not exactly his fault. But it is his responsibility, and when something like this happens, big boys in big pants do big things to set it right.

Now, in our case, the scope of "big" is limited. We're not going to trade for Juan Soto or Elly De La Cruz or Ketel Marte, because they're not going to be made available to us; and we're not going to find an All-Star who's still sitting out there waiting to be signed; and we're not going to bring in someone off the pile like Evan Longoria or Hanser Alberto or AJ Pollock or Josh Harrison (or Tim Anderson!), because they're probably below replacement level by now. Just about the best we can hope for now is that somehow Harris can flip our dwindling (e.g., Flaherty) assets for at least one major-league ready infielder. That seems like a pipe dream, but even if it could happen, that's not going to save this season. This season is, for all practical purposes, done.

No one wants to hear this, but our options are kind of limited in the offseason, too. Yes, I understand this is a decent free agent class, but remember that the "agency" in free agency means players get to choose where they go, and very few players would choose to go to an organization that has lost for eight years running and will be projected to lose for a ninth next year. When it comes to free agents, we are in a class with the White Sox, Rockies, Marlins, and Nationals. That's how players think of us at this moment in time. Harris could take a big swing at talking a pitcher like Max Fried into coming here on an overpay (if Baby Doc were to allow it) because we have a track record of making pitchers good, but Comerica is basically death to hitters, and short of somehow reconfiguring the park into a home run hitter's paradise, anyone who has a choice is almost certainly not going to choose to come here. The best shot Harris has of signing anyone this offseason, I believe, would be Willy Adames, and that would take an offer in the range of Baez years, and that would make it a tough sell to the fans.

In the end, it looks like the surest way we're going to start winning is by building the winner from within, and then adding pieces once we get that core in place—in short, Harris's plan now. It sucks that assets we have now that we were counting on are flailing and setting back the timeline even further, but let's face it, that's our reality now. Ain't no magic wand gonna fix it.

If somehow Tork and Keith could come out of the gates raking next year, just those two guys, even if everyone else does what they're doing now, we're going to have a completely different view of this team. To me, that's the main thing we have to hope for. But if they don't, and we end up going through this all over again next year, people's jobs might start being in jeopardy.

 

Edited July 3 by chasfh

[1984Echoes]

27 minutes ago, casimir said:

...  This organization has been going through sink or swim evaluation for too many seasons in a row.  I understand ...

This part I don't agree with though.

I think this Org has NOT been through any sink or swim evaluation.

I think it's been band-aided for the past 7 years because we were going through a rebuild. Slowly accumulate young talent. Sign cheap FA's and trade them at the deadline.

That is NOT "sink or swim evaluation". That is simply struggling through a rebuild. Avila failed at a previous evaluation of the team (2022 when we "thought" we were on the upswing and he made moves accordingly... the wrong ones); Harris needs to get this evaluation of his young players correct. Now is the time.

[Tiger337]

3 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Or enough kids could click that we win 100.

Starting your holiday celebration a little early?  

[kdog]

42 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

This part I don't agree with though.

I think this Org has NOT been through any sink or swim evaluation.

I think it's been band-aided for the past 7 years because we were going through a rebuild. Slowly accumulate young talent. Sign cheap FA's and trade them at the deadline.

That is NOT "sink or swim evaluation". That is simply struggling through a rebuild. Avila failed at a previous evaluation of the team (2022 when we "thought" we were on the upswing and he made moves accordingly... the wrong ones); Harris needs to get this evaluation of his young players correct. Now is the time.

You're talking in the abstract. The Tigers need people to watch their games and buy tickets. 

The other thing I would ask, have they actually fixed hitting development? Or would we see a repeat of 2024 where every single young hitter is failing?

[1984Echoes]

24 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Starting your holiday celebration a little early?  

Lots and lots and lots of...

 

 

Dr. Pepper.

[1984Echoes]

Just now, kdog said:

... The other thing I would ask, have they actually fixed hitting development? Or would we see a repeat of 2024 where every single young hitter is failing?

This is an unknown IMO.

And it needs to be found out. By Harris.

I think that's a critical evaluation for Harris...

We have a crapload of young guys from AAA to 2nd year in MLB.

Are they good enough? Or not?

Can our development team help them succeed, or not?

To your point: do we have the right hitting coaches to help these guys succeed?

Sort of a critical component of our developmental team/ and to our future success, if we are to have any.

The opportunity/ the time/ to figure all that out, really, is right now. 2024-25.

IMO.

[Tiger337]

They can still evaluate young players while plugging in some short-term veterans via free agency or trade.  It doesn't have to be all or nothing.  They don't have enough legit young players to fill a MLB roster.  

[1984Echoes]

Catcher - Jake Rogers and Dillon Dingler

1B - Tork, or someone else: Ibanez, Keith, Malloy, Jung, Bigbie, Vilade. (somethin's gotta stick).

2B - Jung, Keith, Ibanez, Lee has a chance IMO, others as utility backups: Vilade, Cruz, etc.

SS - You got me here. Cruz on a wild outside shot (I don't think he's ready for MLB in 2025 opening day... just sayin', as a "tryout" to see where he is or how far away...).

3B - Jung, Ibanez, Vierling, Vilade (utility guy has played everywhere except SS and C at Toledo.) Keith if his shoulder is strong enough.

LF - Greene, Malloy, Vierling, Vilade, Perez, Bigbie?

CF - Meadows, Greene, Vierling, Perez, Cruz (as a utility guy if he were to make it this far, if not, AAA).

RF - Carpenter, Greene, Vierling, Perez, Vilade, Bigbie?

DH - anyone.

Did I miss anyone? Add him in...

 

"whatchu talkin bout willis?"

[1984Echoes]

One other perspective... and I'll try it from the fans' side this time...

As a fan, if Harris came right out and said this is what we're going to do in 2025...

I might just say (and I think I already have):

"**** IT!!! Let's DO this!!!"

But that's just me...

[alex]

5 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Catcher - Jake Rogers and Dillon Dingler

1B - Tork, or someone else: Ibanez, Keith, Malloy, Jung, Bigbie, Vilade. (somethin's gotta stick).

2B - Jung, Keith, Ibanez, Lee has a chance IMO, others as utility backups: Vilade, Cruz, etc.

SS - You got me here. Cruz on a wild outside shot (I don't think he's ready for MLB in 2025 opening day... just sayin', as a "tryout" to see where he is or how far away...).

3B - Jung, Ibanez, Vierling, Vilade (utility guy has played everywhere except SS and C at Toledo.) Keith if his shoulder is strong enough.

LF - Greene, Malloy, Vierling, Vilade, Perez, Bigbie?

CF - Meadows, Greene, Vierling, Perez, Cruz (as a utility guy if he were to make it this far, if not, AAA).

RF - Carpenter, Greene, Vierling, Perez, Vilade, Bigbie?

DH - anyone.

Did I miss anyone? Add him in...

 

"whatchu talkin bout willis?"

That is the same team as now. Every team this day and age has 25% turnover or there about from year to year.

I do not even think Chis I will be for NOT adding a bit to the club. ex a few changes. He is hearing/feeling it as well.

Mr Drummond would approve 😄

 

[RatkoVarda]

Every Sunday home game, the Tigers should pick a random fan to play SS. Call it a try out. Could it work? Of course it could! If they don't try, they have already failed.

[tiger2022]

The Tigers are either going to have to overpay for a FA or find one that was injured last season or had a down year and ink him to a 1 year prove it deal.  The problem is when they prove it, they are not interested with returning to the Tigers because they want a chance to win.

[chasfh]

4 minutes ago, tiger2022 said:

The Tigers are either going to have to overpay for a FA or find one that was injured last season or had a down year and ink him to a 1 year prove it deal.  The problem is when they prove it, they are not interested with returning to the Tigers because they want a chance to win.

Any candidates you can suggest?

[tiger2022]

19 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Any candidates you can suggest?

I don't keep up on the FA class, but maybe a guy like Randal Grichuk.  For pitchers, maybe guys that are on the outs and looking for one last chance like Alex Wood, Ross Stripling, or Eric Lauer.  The contract would be a lot lower than Maeda's and if they don't work out, nothing  really lost.

The one player that I have always been a fan of is Jonathan India.  He has another year on his contract for about $5 million.  He's young and really has no position in Cincinnati.  He is starting right now but they have an injured Matt Mclain who will be the starter at 2nd base next year.  They could probably swing a trade in the off-season without giving up too much.  Maybe give him a modest extension and he's instantly the 2nd best offensive player in the organization.  

I don't know what they want to do with Keith and his contract, but India is a big upgrade offensively and defensively.

[Edman85]

Grichuk is at the stage of his career where he signs an incentive laden minor league deal in February.

[tiger2022]

The Tigers will need to sign some of the reclamation projects just to see if they can get production from them and if not, they didn't really lose a lot.

[Tenacious D]

We absolutely need to find the next Lorenzen/Flaherty reclamation. Should be an easy sell.

A bat or two that can help our younger hitters see better pitches would be nice, too.

Edited July 4 by Tenacious D

[casimir]

14 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Catcher - Jake Rogers and Dillon Dingler

1B - Tork, or someone else: Ibanez, Keith, Malloy, Jung, Bigbie, Vilade. (somethin's gotta stick).

2B - Jung, Keith, Ibanez, Lee has a chance IMO, others as utility backups: Vilade, Cruz, etc.

SS - You got me here. Cruz on a wild outside shot (I don't think he's ready for MLB in 2025 opening day... just sayin', as a "tryout" to see where he is or how far away...).

3B - Jung, Ibanez, Vierling, Vilade (utility guy has played everywhere except SS and C at Toledo.) Keith if his shoulder is strong enough.

LF - Greene, Malloy, Vierling, Vilade, Perez, Bigbie?

CF - Meadows, Greene, Vierling, Perez, Cruz (as a utility guy if he were to make it this far, if not, AAA).

RF - Carpenter, Greene, Vierling, Perez, Vilade, Bigbie?

DH - anyone.

Did I miss anyone? Add him in...

 

"whatchu talkin bout willis?"

Trei Cruz?  Come on......

C - Rogers, Dingler.  Opportunity here to add a C with options as the 3rd C.  The Tigers have had quite durable C the past few seasons.

OF - Greene and Carpenter, obviously.  Vierling and Perez have probably earned spots, although neither should be guaranteed starting roles.  Meadows can hopefully hit enough.  Maybe factors in Malloy here, but I think he still has to earn it and likely on as a DH.

SS - Baez.  I don't like it.  You don't like it.  Nobody likes it.  I don't think they're eating the contract yet.  He won't finish the contract as a major leaguer, but they're going to play it out yet.

2B - Keith.  Like Baez, the contract plays the position.  I suppose its possible that Keith is optioned to Toledo.

That's as far as I can see the position players.  Sure, Torkelson might get another shot at 1B.  Jung might get a call up at 3B (I do like how he has cut down on SOs over the seasons, but its tough to assume OPS over .800 in AAA translates to anything substantive in MLB).  Ibanez seems a favorite as a vs LHP platoon to go with Keith.

So at the end of the day, they probably have their catchers, probably an every day middle IF that hasn't shown much of anything at the plate this season, and reasonable enough options for an every day OF with bench spots which at least has been a positive WAR this season.

Urshela, Canha, probably McKinstry out.  Jung, Torkelson, .... Vilade in?  Is that really enough to be viable offensively to go with the above?

[Tenacious D]

For me, the positions that I think they should go outside to upgrade are 1B and SS.  Realize Baez is under contract, but they’ll have to move on if they want to be a playoff contender in 2025 or 2026.  I don’t think they will, though, and will ride Baez until McGonigle is ready.

In reality, any improvement is going to need to come from our young hitters being able to adjust to the bigs.  We’re not signing or trading for 5-6 bats.