Detroit Rock City Lions @ Cleveland Rocks Browns in a Rock N Roll Showdown for the ages !

[NYLion]

18 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Good news is Houston won so this pretty much locks the Lions into the #1 pick. 

The bad news is that Thibodeaux laid a giant steaming pile of an egg on national TV against Utah so of course the Lions are likely picking #1 in a weak draft.

I'm a Thibodeax fan but he hasn't looked like a #1 talent for most of this season. Might have to start taking a closer look at Hutchinson now because I doubt a trade down is possible.

[Motor City Sonics]

9 minutes ago, NYLion said:

The bad news is that Thibodeaux laid a giant steaming pile of an egg on national TV against Utah so of course the Lions are likely picking #1 in a weak draft.

I'm a Thibodeax fan but he hasn't looked like a #1 talent for most of this season. Might have to start taking a closer look at Hutchinson now because I doubt a trade down is possible.

I don't want the Lions picking #1.  I want them trading down for 2 or 3 picks.  They don't need one guy, they need 15.    

I know that people are saying the QB isn't there this year, but we all know that the QBs will rise, rise, rise by draft day and 3 of them will probably get taken in the Top 10.     Denver, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Washington, Houston - will all be looking for QBs.   If the Lions don't fall in love with one, wait or make a trade that can still get you one a little further down in the draft.   Kenny Pickett looks like the out-of-nowhere guy this year.  

[NYLion]

4 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I don't want the Lions picking #1.  I want them trading down for 2 or 3 picks.  They don't need one guy, they need 15.    

I know that people are saying the QB isn't there this year, but we all know that the QBs will rise, rise, rise by draft day and 3 of them will probably get taken in the Top 10.     Denver, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Washington, Houston - will all be looking for QBs.   If the Lions don't fall in love with one, wait or make a trade that can still get you one a little further down in the draft.   Kenny Pickett looks like the out-of-nowhere guy this year.  

A trade down would be preferable with no QB worth trading up for, I don't see there being much interest in the #1 pick. Kind of like the Okudah draft, the Lions are stuck at that spot. Hopefully Hutchinson shows some good stuff against Ohio State and puts his name in consideration.

Edited November 22, 2021 by NYLion

[Motor City Sonics]

Momma jokes are a penalty now?     Boy, Conrad Dobler would struggle in today's game.  

[Motor City Sonics]

14 minutes ago, NYLion said:

A trade down would be preferable with no QB worth trading up for, I don't see there being much interest in the #1 pick. Kind of like the Okudah draft, the Lions are stuck at that spot. Hopefully Hutchinson shows some good stuff against Ohio State and puts his name in consideration.

But at #1 there might be that player that some time HAS to have.   Depends on the return.   Maybe Philly sees the one guy they covet, that they think can put them over the top - and you can get their 2 Top Ten picks.   

 

[NYLion]

3 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

But at #1 there might be that player that some time HAS to have.   Depends on the return.   Maybe Philly sees the one guy they covet, that they think can put them over the top - and you can get their 2 Top Ten picks.   

 

When was the last time a #1 pick was traded (Goff draft I believe) and how many times before that? Furthermore, how many times did a team trade up to #1 to take a non-QB? Trade ups are almost always for a QB.

It's just not realistic to expect a trade down. If the Lions end with #1, they will be drafting #1. It's just like the Okudah draft all over again. They're stuck taking a player with question marks. Maybe they should take a QB at this point since nobody else is #1 worthy, take Corral and bank on that big upside. It's not like he'll start next season anyway.

Edited November 22, 2021 by NYLion

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, NYLion said:

A trade down would be preferable with no QB worth trading up for,

so why isn't Stroud getting more buzz? Three receivers don't set records without a pretty good QB tossing the ball.

[sagnam]

2 hours ago, NYLion said:

The bad news is that Thibodeaux laid a giant steaming pile of an egg on national TV against Utah so of course the Lions are likely picking #1 in a weak draft.

I'm a Thibodeax fan but he hasn't looked like a #1 talent for most of this season. Might have to start taking a closer look at Hutchinson now because I doubt a trade down is possible.

https://www.oregonlive.com/ducks/2021/11/13-takeaways-from-oregons-loss-to-utah.html

 

“Kayvon Thibodeaux had an impact but was largely neutralized because Utah offensive coordinator Andy Ludwig had the extremely complicated game plan of running the ball away from the best defensive player in the country.”
 

”Kayvon Thibodeaux wasn’t put in positions to maximize his impact

Thibodeaux had seven tackles and a pass breakup. He regularly stuck with plays from the backside and chased down runners from behind. He did cause some pressure on Rising, but Utah schemed around him for the most part, running the opposite direction, chipping and double-teaming when need be.

To not move Thibodeaux inside or stunt him more often, if for no other reason than to give the Utes a different look, was a missed opportunity. Dropping him into pass coverage on occasion has been OK at points this season, but one play had him dropping with only an end-of-line tight end eligible and resulted in a big play to the other side of the field. When Utah’s offense wasn’t taking Thibodeaux out of the game, Oregon’s defense did too at times.”

[Hongbit]

6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

so why isn't Stroud getting more buzz? Three receivers don't set records without a pretty good QB tossing the ball.

He’s not eligible unless he wants try and sue the NFL.   Times have changed since Maurice Clarett and Mike Williams failed in their legal fight.  The NCAA is a mess so maybe the NFL is more open to the idea. 

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

He’s not eligible unless he wants try and sue the NFL.   Times have changed since Maurice Clarett and Mike Williams failed in their legal fight.  The NCAA is a mess so maybe the NFL is more open to the idea. 

Ah - hadn't even thought about that. Sort of just figured everyone was a year further along after 20Covid20.

Edited November 22, 2021 by gehringer_2

[Motown Bombers]

1 hour ago, NYLion said:

When was the last time a #1 pick was traded (Goff draft I believe) and how many times before that? Furthermore, how many times did a team trade up to #1 to take a non-QB? Trade ups are almost always for a QB.

It's just not realistic to expect a trade down. If the Lions end with #1, they will be drafting #1. It's just like the Okudah draft all over again. They're stuck taking a player with question marks. Maybe they should take a QB at this point since nobody else is #1 worthy, take Corral and bank on that big upside. It's not like he'll start next season anyway.

Generally teams that have the #1 pick don't want to trade it. I'm sure SF would have traded with Jacksonville for the #1 pick if it were available instead of #3. Also, it wasn't that long ago where top draft picks were getting tons of guaranteed money. That was a disincentive right there to trade for the #1 pick. 

[buddha]

thibodeaux is going to show out at his pro day too.  numbers should be off the charts for a guy his size.  

if he does workout.  he may not.

[MichiganCardinal]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

thibodeaux is going to show out at his pro day too.  numbers should be off the charts for a guy his size.  

if he does workout.  he may not.

I'd like to see him workout, and I think Hutchinson may challenge him for first edge rusher off the board if he does not. My impression has been that Thibodeaux has been playing at less than 100% for much of this season after a high ankle sprain in September, and it would be nice to see what he could do in a fully healthy Pro Day.

[MichiganCardinal]

6 hours ago, sabretooth said:

I am so far not impressed by a new HC who "fires" his new OC from play calling only to pull out the most conservative offense imaginable.  I suppose it makes sense for a team with zero skills/talent.  That's on Holmes primarily.

OTOH, Campbell should not be judged on W/L at this point.

However, I do expect to see clear evidence at some point that he has a program and approach that will translate to a talented roster. 

Is he a great motivator of talent?  We have seen signs of this with competitive games where you would have expected a large margin of defeat....

.....but then there's the Philly game.  

Campbell seems more like a bread-and-butter HC with a great personality than an innovative guy.

I agree to a certain degree. As much as I am not bothered by the play-calling processes of an 0-9-1 team, I think in the postseason meetings that I'm sure the Front Office and ownership will have with Campbell, the process of how Campbell came to be calling plays should be addressed. If he did it to spark a flame in a winless team and there remains confidence in Lynn to be OC, that's fine, whatever.

That said, they (being ownership/Spielman) did not hire Campbell to call plays. They clearly hired him to be the leader of men (of which I think he's done a solid job all in all), surrounding himself with people who were experienced on their side of the ball to coach up and oversee that side of the ball. I don't think they will appreciate that being permanently abandoned eight games into a six year contract. I would actually hope it's not something they would allow.

If Lynn is not the long-term answer at OC, that's fine too. Relieve him in the offseason and find or promote someone capable of managing both OC duties and play-calling.

[sabretooth]

1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I agree to a certain degree. As much as I am not bothered by the play-calling processes of an 0-9-1 team, I think in the postseason meetings that I'm sure the Front Office and ownership will have with Campbell, the process of how Campbell came to be calling plays should be addressed. If he did it to spark a flame in a winless team and there remains confidence in Lynn to be OC, that's fine, whatever.

That said, they (being ownership/Spielman) did not hire Campbell to call plays. They clearly hired him to be the leader of men (of which I think he's done a solid job all in all), surrounding himself with people who were experienced on their side of the ball to coach up and oversee that side of the ball. I don't think they will appreciate that being permanently abandoned eight games into a six year contract. I would actually hope it's not something they would allow.

If Lynn is not the long-term answer at OC, that's fine too. Relieve him in the offseason and find or promote someone capable of managing both OC duties and play-calling.

The FO should do all of this evaluation, and your criteria are sensible....my bigger issue is whether the FO's judgment regarding the HC and more importantly the FO's judgment and performance WRT the roster is capable and up to snuff.  They will and should have some time to work things out, but after next year, if things are not clearly moving in the right direction (I am not talking playoffs in year two but a clearly positive trajectory towards a winning record and hopefully playoff contention in year 3 or 4), I would conclude that they are not up to the job, and shouldn't have more than 3 years if that is the case. 

If the FO bombs in a couple of years, then ownership is in a serious quandary.  They can and should move on, without waiting more than 3 years, but in that case, ownership would be moving to their 4th FO regime in 10 years (Mayhew out in 2015, Quinn out in 2020, and Holmes out after 2023, new regime in 2024)....granted, Sheila would have been responsible only for two changeovers, but at what point would the Ford family become a pariah with potential FO talent (if they aren't already)?

I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but this is really my way of asking -- if Sheila is to be taken seriously as an owner at this time, and not tainted with the Ford stink out of the gate, how long does she have before her regime turns into a pumpkin?  Or a Pinto?

[RandyMarsh]

People have been begging the FO for years to tear it down and start over and now that they do people are already questioning them and the coaching staff cause the team sucks. What did you expect to happen?

[MichiganCardinal]

1 hour ago, sabretooth said:

The FO should do all of this evaluation, and your criteria are sensible....my bigger issue is whether the FO's judgment regarding the HC and more importantly the FO's judgment and performance WRT the roster is capable and up to snuff.  They will and should have some time to work things out, but after next year, if things are not clearly moving in the right direction (I am not talking playoffs in year two but a clearly positive trajectory towards a winning record and hopefully playoff contention in year 3 or 4), I would conclude that they are not up to the job, and shouldn't have more than 3 years if that is the case. 

If the FO bombs in a couple of years, then ownership is in a serious quandary.  They can and should move on, without waiting more than 3 years, but in that case, ownership would be moving to their 4th FO regime in 10 years (Mayhew out in 2015, Quinn out in 2020, and Holmes out after 2023, new regime in 2024)....granted, Sheila would have been responsible only for two changeovers, but at what point would the Ford family become a pariah with potential FO talent (if they aren't already)?

I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but this is really my way of asking -- if Sheila is to be taken seriously as an owner at this time, and not tainted with the Ford stink out of the gate, how long does she have before her regime turns into a pumpkin?  Or a Pinto?

Hopefully it doesn’t come to this, as I think Holmes has given us no reason for concern other than the history behind the logo on his shirts…

I don’t think there will ever be real trouble finding FO personnel though. There are only 32 GM jobs in the NFL and only one or two are usually open any given offseason. It’s hard enough to get one, you can’t really be picky hoping to be handed one with something of quality. Honestly I think the Ford’s reputation for being hands-off probably plays to their favor. I think a lot of GM candidates would rather the Lions gig than the Cowboys for instance.

[Hongbit]

Speaking of FO,  Our old one is the gift that keeps on giving.  Fricking Quinn and his buddy the genius.   Even when these clowns got something right, they still got it wrong.   

D’Andre Swift has been a great draft pick and will probably go down as Quintricia’s best.  The guy the Colts happily selected 6 picks later at the same position, Jonathan Taylor,  is having a year that few RB have ever had.   It’s taken him just 2 years to establish himself as maybe the best in the league.  It’s so Lions that even when they make a great pick, they end up missing on something that was much better.   

[sabretooth]

15 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Hopefully it doesn’t come to this, as I think Holmes has given us no reason for concern other than the history behind the logo on his shirts…

I don’t think there will ever be real trouble finding FO personnel though. There are only 32 GM jobs in the NFL and only one or two are usually open any given offseason. It’s hard enough to get one, you can’t really be picky hoping to be handed one with something of quality. Honestly I think the Ford’s reputation for being hands-off probably plays to their favor. I think a lot of GM candidates would rather the Lions gig than the Cowboys for instance.

You are right of course that they will always find GMs and HCs....I do believe that the top-of-the-line talent can easily avoid jobs they see as less-than-desirable. 

The Fords might have a reputation for being hands-off (I have heard people say that but I wonder if that's true), but the Lions definitely have a national reputation for being the Kobayashi Maru of NFL teams.

While I honestly believe the team's reputation as an all-time-loser hurts our chances at getting top talent to come here, I also know that I am wildly speculating on this point.

[Jason_R]

On 11/22/2021 at 6:29 PM, RandyMarsh said:

People have been begging the FO for years to tear it down and start over and now that they do people are already questioning them and the coaching staff cause the team sucks. What did you expect to happen?

Yes, thank you. Everybody knew after Tweedledum and Tweedledee left that the team was going to be a disaster, especially after Stafford begged out. There was some optimism that Goff would be adequate, but here we are. 

There is a reason Campbell got a six year contract. It is a massive rebuild, and with a six year deal, they are promising him at least four years to get the team in playoff shape. He will need it.

It is not a good look for Anthony Lynn to get play calling duties revoked, but I would bet money that this is something that Campbell and Spielman talked about extensively before it happened. 

[gehringer_2]

17 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

It is not a good look for Anthony Lynn to get play calling duties revoked, but I would bet money that this is something that Campbell and Spielman talked about extensively before it happened. 

it wouldn't be that terrible that among several hires, one would be a missed shot, in which case better to be done with it and move on. You just have to hope the reason it didn't work out is the hiree and not the hirer.

Edited November 24, 2021 by gehringer_2

[RandyMarsh]

Lynn was actually the one hire between all the coaches and management I was least excited about so I'm not surprised he may be the first to go. 

[Hongbit]

I actually like ALynn.  This team is finally able to run the ball after decades of ineptitude and he doesn’t get even a morsel of credit for it.   I don’t understand.  Before the season, everyone knew this team was going to struggle offensively with Goff and a terrible WR crew.   Devastating injuries to the line and WR made things even worse but the team is still able to run better than they have in years.   I think he’s done a better job than all the other OC clowns that have been here the last 10 years.  

[sabretooth]

12 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

I actually like ALynn.  This team is finally able to run the ball after decades of ineptitude and he doesn’t get even a morsel of credit for it.   I don’t understand.  Before the season, everyone knew this team was going to struggle offensively with Goff and a terrible WR crew.   Devastating injuries to the line and WR made things even worse but the team is still able to run better than they have in years.   I think he’s done a better job than all the other OC clowns that have been here the last 10 years.  

 I do appreciate the fact that they are finally running the ball fairly effectively

[sabretooth]

On 11/22/2021 at 6:29 PM, RandyMarsh said:

People have been begging the FO for years to tear it down and start over and now that they do people are already questioning them and the coaching staff cause the team sucks. What did you expect to happen?

To be perfectly clear, I am not saying that anyone should be fired, nor should they even be contemplating firing anybody at this time, nor should anybody's job be on the line based upon wins and losses this year.  

I am saying that I have no reason for faith in any of these guys until they perform on the field.   Why any fans would accept anything less and/or criticize that perspective after so many years of losing is beyond me.

I realize that the lack of talent left for the new FO and the injuries suffered have fated them to a low win total.

But I also keep hearing suggestions that they should be tanking every year until they secure the next Tom Brady with the top overall pick (never mind the pretty it was picked in the 6th rd).   

That is a bullcrap approach...they need to do whatever they can to get whatever quarterback they need at whatever the right time may be, and NOT assume that the top pick is the only way to get the right WB.

Should we get the ultimate QB sooner or later?  That depends on a lot of things we cannot predict.  Bottom line is that we need to build the right team for whoever the QB may be without multi-season tanking.   

If we play our cards the right way and build the right team, if the best QB is not available through the draft, then we can go out and get a Tom Brady or even a Matt Stafford with a trade or a free agent signing and be a really good team with the really good QB and avoid lots of needless tanking.

I do wonder if anyone believes that it's going to take 6 years to turn this thing around.   I don't care how bad the situation is, in the NFL you can turn almost any situation around and get it on a an upward trajectory towards the playoffs within 3 years, even if the playoffs might not come until year 4.

Edited November 24, 2021 by sabretooth