5/4/24 1:10PM Tigers @ Yankees

[Sports_Freak]

19 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

"He's the second best hitter" was my sarcastic comment to your "4th or 5th best hitter" comment.

We're going around in circles...

But he's a switch hitter so you have to divide his stats by 6.554, multiply by 17 and then add 4.6. That makes him our 2nd best hitter...today. It will vary week to week. 🤣🤣

[Sports_Freak]

52 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't think anything should be based on hot streaks because they can end at any time.  Line-ups should be based oln what the manager thinks hitters will do long-term 

Is this a joke? Vierling, Perez or Canha would all be better leading off than Greene. Miguel Cabrera was the Tigers best hitter in several seasons. I never, ever, saw him leading off to get a few extra at bats per week. And he had much better 7, 8 and 9 hitters than the current Tiger team.

[Tiger337]

48 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

Is this a joke? Vierling, Perez or Canha would all be better leading off than Greene. Miguel Cabrera was the Tigers best hitter in several seasons. I never, ever, saw him leading off to get a few extra at bats per week. And he had much better 7, 8 and 9 hitters than the current Tiger team.

II wouldn't joke about something like that.  😃 I would not have had a problem if Cabrera led off especially since those Tigers teams had some pretty good power hitters to go with him.  I always thought he should have batted secod.  I also have no problem with Greene leading off.  The Tigers have so few good hitters that I don't want them losing hits and baserunners by subtracting at bats from their best hitter.  Another reason Greene might be leading off instead of batting second which is statistically optimal is that he has not really been a big home run hitter until recently.  He just now appears to emerging into a home run hitter where he was more of an OBP guy previously.  If that trend continues, I can see him being moved to the second spot, so they can optimize run scoring and RBI opportunities even though they'd be losing some of his at bats.  

The days where a team's best hitter bats third are fading away and I am glad the Tigers have a modern manager who recognizes that.  

[Motor City Sonics]

We keep talking about who could be good if given the chance.   We just don't know.   What we DO know is that Spencer Torkelson, when you take offense and defense into the equation,  may be the worst starting player in the majors right now and it doesn't seem to be getting better.    Sending him down to Toledo may not be a punishment, it might be the thing that saves his career.  I feel like AJ hinch is looking at the crumpled hood of the car and saying "my dad's a TV repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools.......I can fix it".   

 See, the team is 18-15 now and they are in the thick of it in their division and continuing this course with Tork/Meadows/Keith sends a message that it's okay to fail on a massive level and that's terrible.   This 18-15 should probably be 22-11 based on the number of fantastic pitching performances that have gone for nothing.   

Skubal a Cy Young candidate,  Olson is pitching great with 0 wins,   Flaherty just struck out 14 and they lost,  Kenta has turned the corner and looks how we hoped he would and maybe the weakest in the rotation is Casey Mize, who has pitched really well, actually.   This is his return from almost 2 years off,  he's not even really fully back yet, but what we've seen so far is extremely encouraging.     This is being wasted for 3 young players who seem to have been deemed "untouchable".   That's ridiculous.        I don't care what McKinstry hits, he's the swiss army knife.  I don't care what Rogers and Kelly hit,  Rogers is a big reason for our pitching.     The righty/lefty matchup thing is getting old.   Ibanez, Perez, Vierling all need to be in the lineup every single day because they are actually earning it.   Take 'em out when they cool off.   This need to prove a point is costing them games and we only need to look back at last year to know that if you can just get in the playoffs, you can do some damage,  especially with pitching like ours.    LETS NOT ****ING SQUANDER THIS!   We haven't had a meaningful post-May game in years,  lets not fall off a cliff over 3 guys who haven't earned it.  

I've never been convinced Meadows will hit, but I have seen Tork show power and I do think Keith will be a serviceable major leaguer, but maybe Keith's just not ready yet.  Maybe Meadows needs to tweak things that can't really be fixed against big league pitching and maybe Tork will start to do some good things at a lower level to at least remember what that feels like. Tork can't hit a fastball right now and that's so freaking bad.  Is it a vision problem?  Is it mental?    The Eric Munson comparison is so good.  Almost exactly the same stats.  How did that end?      Baddoo and Malloy deserve shots at this point, but they shouldn't be blocked by 3 players who aren't doing much of anything.   I know it's an evaluation year, but winning now should matter too.       Canha and Ibanez can play first and both are probably better at it than Torkelson.    

The glove/range and lack of any other real option are the things keeping Baez here, but based on performance he shouldn't be here anymore.   We'll just have to live with that like a drug side effect. 

 

Maybe the Tigers are just thinking "Well, half our fanbase can't even watch right now, lets sneak these guys in".   (that's just a joke).   

Let's not spoil this Summer early please.  Stay in this until September.  

Edited May 4 by Motor City Sonics

[SeattleMike]

1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

We keep talking about who could be good if given the chance.   We just don't know.   What we DO know is that Spencer Torkelson, when you take offense and defense into the equation,  may be the worst starting player in the majors right now and it doesn't seem to be getting better.    Sending him down to Toledo may not be a punishment, it might be the thing that saves his career.  I feel like AJ hinch is looking at the crumpled hood of the car and saying "my dad's a TV repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools.......I can fix it".   

 See, the team is 18-15 now and they are in the thick of it in their division and continuing this course with Tork/Meadows/Keith sends a message that it's okay to fail on a massive level and that's terrible.   This 18-15 should probably be 22-11 based on the number of fantastic pitching performances that have gone for nothing.   

Skubal a Cy Young candidate,  Olson is pitching great with 0 wins,   Flaherty just struck out 14 and they lost,  Kenta has turned the corner and looks how we hoped he would and maybe the weakest in the rotation is Casey Mize, who has pitched really well, actually.   This is his return from almost 2 years off,  he's not even really fully back yet, but what we've seen so far is extremely encouraging.     This is being wasted for 3 young players who seem to have been deemed "untouchable".   That's ridiculous.        I don't care what McKinstry hits, he's the swiss army knife.  I don't care what Rogers and Kelly hit,  Rogers is a big reason for our pitching.     The righty/lefty matchup thing is getting old.   Ibanez, Perez, Vierling all need to be in the lineup every single day because they are actually earning it.   Take 'em out when they cool off.   This need to prove a point is costing them games and we only need to look back at last year to know that if you can just get in the playoffs, you can do some damage,  especially with pitching like ours.    LETS NOT ****ING SQUANDER THIS!   We haven't had a meaningful post-May game in years,  lets not fall off a cliff over 3 guys who haven't earned it.  

I've never been convinced Meadows will hit, but I have seen Tork show power and I do think Keith will be a serviceable major leaguer, but maybe Keith's just not ready yet.  Maybe Meadows needs to tweak things that can't really be fixed against big league pitching and maybe Tork will start to do some good things at a lower level to at least remember what that feels like. Tork can't hit a fastball right now and that's so freaking bad.  Is it a vision problem?  Is it mental?    The Eric Munson comparison is so good.  Almost exactly the same stats.  How did that end?      Baddoo and Malloy deserve shots at this point, but they shouldn't be blocked by 3 players who aren't doing much of anything.   I know it's an evaluation year, but winning now should matter too.       Canha and Ibanez can play first and both are probably better at it than Torkelson.    

The glove/range and lack of any other real option are the things keeping Baez here, but based on performance he shouldn't be here anymore.   We'll just have to live with that like a drug side effect. 

 

Maybe the Tigers are just thinking "Well, half our fanbase can't even watch right now, lets sneak these guys in".   (that's just a joke).   

Let's not spoil this Summer early please.  Stay in this until September.  

Munson vs Torkelson PAs comparison is not exactly apples to apples. Munson hit 3 HRs through his age 24 season. Tork had 39 though his age 23 season. I still think there is something there, but Tork probably does need a reset. Or it could just be a horrific slump. There are a boatload of guys throughout MLB with great tracks who are struggling mightily right now. A few examples: Jrod has one HR and only very recently lifted his OPS above .600. Corbin Carroll has one HR and a .534 OPS. Gleybar Torres one HR and .571 OPS. Randy Aronzarena with a .507 OPS. 

[gehringer_2]

the problem is that these guys who are not performing in the majors have by and large already outperformed the guys in the minors folks are clamoring to bring up. The gulf from AAA to the majors is massive. I don't see anyone at Toledo right now that I think is any kind of lock to hit 225 in the majors. Maybe Baddoo if the brain trust believes he has materially improved since the last time he flamed out in Det. (and you don't want to replace Canha/Greene/Carp/Perez right now anyway - Meadows might as well go down if he is going to sit but you still don't need another OF because you have 5 with Vierling who goes back to mostly OF when Urshella returns )

The problems are around the IF and catcher, and neither Malloy or Baddoo help you there.

I'm not against a move per se, I just don't see any particularly compelling candidates. There is certainly no 2023 Colt Keith there.

Edited May 5 by gehringer_2

[SeattleMike]

16 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

the problem is that these guys who are not performing in the majors have by and large already outperformed the guys in the minors folks are clamoring to bring up. The gulf from AAA to the majors is massive. I don't see anyone at Toledo right now that I think is any kind of lock to hit 225 in the majors. Maybe Baddoo if the brain trust believes he has materially improved since the last time he flamed out in Det. (and you don't want to replace Canha/Greene/Carp/Perez right now anyway - Meadows might as well go down if he is going to sit but you still don't need another OF because you have 5 with Vierling who goes back to mostly OF when Urshella returns )

I'm not against a move per se, I just don't see any particularly compelling candidates. There is certainly no 2023 Colt Keith there.

Badoo had an 86 OPS+ last year. Replacing Meadows 30 OPS+ with something like that would help the offense. But the defense would definitely slip so the net result might be zero, in which case you probably don't make the swap. 

[gehringer_2]

57 minutes ago, SeattleMike said:

Badoo had an 86 OPS+ last year. Replacing Meadows 30 OPS+ with something like that would help the offense. But the defense would definitely slip so the net result might be zero, in which case you probably don't make the swap. 

And you already have another bat to play in front of Parker in Perez. If/when Perez cools down and Parker would be in line to gain back more AB, then you have more of an issue to visit for Baddoo. But Vierling isn't doing too bad against RHP so he is also a candidate to pick up Parker's PT if he is sent down.

Edited May 5 by gehringer_2

[Jim Cowan]

5 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

II wouldn't joke about something like that.  😃 I would not have had a problem if Cabrera led off especially since those Tigers teams had some pretty good power hitters to go with him.  I always thought he should have batted secod.  I also have no problem with Greene leading off.  The Tigers have so few good hitters that I don't want them losing hits and baserunners by subtracting at bats from their best hitter.  Another reason Greene might be leading off instead of batting second which is statistically optimal is that he has not really been a big home run hitter until recently.  He just now appears to emerging into a home run hitter where he was more of an OBP guy previously.  If that trend continues, I can see him being moved to the second spot, so they can optimize run scoring and RBI opportunities even though they'd be losing some of his at bats.  

The days where a team's best hitter bats third are fading away and I am glad the Tigers have a modern manager who recognizes that.  

That's well said.  The team's best hitter should bat 3rd if Tony Phillips is leading off, and if Tony Phillips is also batting second.  Otherwise, bat him second.

[Jim Cowan]

Hi I've just awakened from a coma, the guy who should bat second is a white second baseman with an Eastern European surname and a low OBP, he can take a strike while the leadoff hitter steals 100 bases, he can handle the bat and hit behind the runner, and he can drop down a bunt.  He has moxie, and intangibles up to here, and he has the dirtiest uniform.

[Dan Gilmore]

Yeah, but what about his socks?

[HeyAbbott]

10 hours ago, oblong said:

I just put the app on my smart TV and logged in. I have a Samsung. 

Bally runs just fine on my Samsung Smart TV I purchased in November.

[casimir]

16 hours ago, Hongbit said:

MLB has allowed poorly called balls and strikes to become a part of the game.   It happens multiple times in almost every game.  

Human element.  Some people like it.  Until they don't.

[casimir]

16 hours ago, kdog said:

Tork discussion aside, the catchers are awful at the plate. Also McKinsty should be on dfa watch IMO.

Kind of goes to show how well the pitching has performed in order to keep this team up in the playoff contention part of the standings.

[casimir]

16 hours ago, mtutiger said:

It's fair...

I so think that if Tork goes down, Malloy ought to be the one coming up. Huira is the popular choice because he's a primary first baseman, but we need to see what Malloy has and, ****ty of a situation as it is, it presents an opportunity for him IMO

I have the feeling Malloy won't be called up. but I'd be fine with it.  I'm not sure any non40 would be called up right now, but that's just how I think the Tigers would operate right now.  I think they'd rather pull up Baddoo and use Canha at 1B.

Greene LF

Canha 1B

Perez CF

Carpenter RF

Malloy DH

Vierling 3B

Keith/Ibanez 2B

Baez SS

Catcher

Vierling can back up CF with Urshela backfilling him.  Torkelson and Carpenter down to Toledo.  I'm not sure how long Perez can keep things up, but there's not much choice but to ride whatever hot bats they have right now.

[casimir]

16 hours ago, Edman85 said:

Hiura also has a 6/1 upward mobility clause. Worth keeping in the ol' noggin as the month progresses.

Is that a standard practice?  It came across to me like it was a unique clause, but I don't know.

[casimir]

16 hours ago, Toddwert said:

he should be benched just for inventing the stupid pizza spear

Karma from the baseball gods?

[casimir]

12 hours ago, SeattleMike said:

Badoo had an 86 OPS+ last year. Replacing Meadows 30 OPS+ with something like that would help the offense. But the defense would definitely slip so the net result might be zero, in which case you probably don't make the swap. 

But I think the rationale there would be a short term reset for long term benefit.  Is there something Meadows can get done in Toledo which would bump that 30+ up to around 80+ going forward upon his return?

Maybe there isn't.  While the Tigers seem to have the pitching side of the game figured out, the hitting is questionable.  Is it coaching/development or is it the players?  Keith might be a barometer of that for Harris given the contract that was signed.

[casimir]

16 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

No one is hyperventilating Lee.

YOU'RE the one throwing out exaggerations:

You're the only one who seems to be upset that he has started out hot and therefore using hyperbole.

 

16 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Tork batted a .758 OPS in 2023 in 606 AB's...

That is a MUCH longer track record than Wenceel Perez so he should bat (checks: Lee's notes on sabermetrificating the optimizalled lineup): FOURTH!!!

Tork should bat FOURTH because he was their THIRD best hitter last year and has a LONGER TRACK RECORD than Wenceel Perez so he:

MUST

BAT

FOURTH!!!

(it is so... written in stone...)

 

16 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Except for, 

IMO,

The 6 RBI's on his 6 HR's. 

And his ONE HR which actually had men on base.

I'm glad you want Greene to lead the league in solo HR's.

That's AWESOME!!!

You might need to get that CAPS LOCK button recalibrated in Toledo.

[chasfh]

16 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Miguel Cabrera was the Tigers best hitter in several seasons. I never, ever, saw him leading off to get a few extra at bats per week.

Fire Jim Leyland!

[chasfh]

14 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I also have no problem with Greene leading off.  The Tigers have so few good hitters that I don't want them losing hits and baserunners by subtracting at bats from their best hitter. 

This is my exact thought any time anyone suggests a team should run a six-man rotation out there. That’s a semi-fashionable thing to suggest these days, and many teams are talking about it if not actually doing it. But why would I want to take ten or twelve starts away from Tarik Skubal and Jack Flaherty just to give more starts to their fifth- and sixth-best starters? Six-man rotations make sense only if you your six best starters are similarly talented and it doesn’t really matter who loses starts so the extra guy can get some.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

This is my exact thought any time anyone suggests a team should run a six-man rotation out there. That’s a semi-fashionable thing to suggest these days, and many teams are talking about it if not actually doing it. But why would I want to take ten or twelve starts away from Tarik Skubal and Jack Flaherty just to give more starts to their fifth- and sixth-best starters? Six-man rotations make sense only if you your six best starters are similarly talented and it doesn’t really matter who loses starts so the extra guy can get some.

I think the next step might be to have rotations where you have two or three regular starters and then you have a set of pithers who serve as swing men pitching 100-120 innings per year and then your short relievers.  

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

I think the next step might be to have rotations where you have two or three regular starters and then you have a set of pithers who serve as swing men pitching 100-120 innings per year and then your short relievers.  

Do you know of any team going in this direction? I'm not even sure who's doing openers anymore.

[Tiger337]

12 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Do you know of any team going in this direction? I'm not even sure who's doing openers anymore.

No, I don't.  With starters going fewer and fewer innings, it just seems like a natural step.  At some point, the back end starters are going to be pitching 3-4 innings per start which means the bullpen is going to pitching more innings than the starters and the line between starter/reliever gets blurry.  

[Tiger337]

The Tigers have 129 wRC this year.  This means that based on their numbers of hits, homers, extra base hits, walks and outs, they should have 129 runs scored this year.  They actually have 131 runs scored, so the line-up is producing producing almost exactly as one would expect.