Project Autocracy

[gehringer_2]

12 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Again, legal immigration vs illegal. 

If we are talking about what policy should be, it's on the assumption policy will or needs to change. What policy is does not bind what it should be, and the arguments to support what it should be can't be constrained by what it is.

Edited January 1 by gehringer_2

[mtutiger]

9 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I am only speaking to the low skilled illegal immigrants here currently. 

But my point was in reference to how your argument about needing more high skilled Indian PEs easily applies to needing more low skilled workers in fields like agriculture. Or construction.

As you believe we should be encouraging more H1B visas for highly skilled workers, I also believe that the same arguments apply to making it easier for lower skilled workers to immigrate and work in the US in various fields. Goes back to the discussion we had last week on this board: the demand exists for immigration, both for skilled and non-skilled workers in this country.

The focus on "legal vs illegal immigration" misses the point that I am making entirely

Edited January 1 by mtutiger

[Tiger337]

11 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I am only speaking to the low skilled illegal immigrants here currently. 

Who hired them?  

[Motor City Sonics]

Watching the Twilight Zone marathon.    Rod Serling and his writers were genius.    The episode with the Neo Nazi played by Dennis Hopper had the following epilogue that is so crystal clear right now.    Rod tried to warn us.   

 

 

Where will he go next, this phantom from another time, this resurrected ghost of a previous nightmare? Chicago? Los Angeles? Miami, Florida? Vincennes, Indiana? Syracuse, New York? Any place, every place, where there's hate, where there's prejudice, where there's bigotry — he's alive. He's alive so long as these evils exist. Remember that when he comes to your town. Remember it when you hear his voice speaking out through others. Remember it when you hear a name called, a minority attacked, any blind, unreasoning assault on a people or any human being. He's alive, because through these things, we keep him alive.

[CMRivdogs]

1 hour ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

This makes zero sense. 

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/oct/26/elon-musk-illegal-immigration

[oblong]

I thjnk the elephant in the room is that people are ok with Indians from Chennai being here as doctors and engineers  but not with Mexicans being here.  They just want say it. 

[Tigeraholic1]

The elephant in the room are the folks who entered the country illegally, always has been always will be.

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Who hired them?  

Probably a lot of Trump donors lol

[CMRivdogs]

1 minute ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

The elephant in the room are the folks who entered the country illegally, always has been always will be.

???

[mtutiger]

Just now, Tigeraholic1 said:

The elephant in the room are the folks who entered the country illegally, always has been always will be.

The elephant in the room is that you keep ignoring the point that we need both more high skilled and low skilled immigrants to meet the demands of our economy.

And yet you, for whatever reason, seem to treat the need for low skilled immigration... differently. 

[Tiger337]

2 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

The elephant in the room are the folks who entered the country illegally, always has been always will be.

We should not allow people into the country illegally, but not everybody who enters the country illegally is a bad person.  

[gehringer_2]

17 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

We should not allow people into the country illegally, but not everybody who enters the country illegally is a bad person.  

I am not offended if we want to allow more immigration, I am not offended if the country decides to allow less. I am offended by the hypocrisy of letting millions of people into the country on a nod and wink for the benefit of employers without giving them rights or a path to citizenship.

Edited January 1 by gehringer_2

[Tigeraholic1]

21 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

The elephant in the room is that you keep ignoring the point that we need both more high skilled and low skilled immigrants to meet the demands of our economy.

And yet you, for whatever reason, seem to treat the need for low skilled immigration... differently. 

I don’t feel they need to be treated differently, they just need to follow the laws for immigrating into the country legally. 

[Tigeraholic1]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I am not offended if we want to allow more immigration, I am not offended if the country decides to allow less. I am offended by letting millions of people into the country on a nod and wink for the benefit of employers without giving them rights or a path to citizenship.

Bingo, everything else is just noise.

[mtutiger]

11 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I don’t feel they need to be treated differently, they just need to follow the laws for immigrating into the country legally. 

Quote

H1B is the type of imigration we need. I work with engineers all day at Ford. The Indian PE's run circles around their american counterparts. 

Your own words.... unless I am misinterpreting, you are basically advocating for laws to be loosened for H1B applicants specifically, to make it easier for them to come here and work.

My question to you is that, given that we likewise have a need for lower skilled immigrants in a number of different sectors, do you likewise advocate for laws to be loosened to allow for it to be easier for these sorts of workers to come in as well?

[mtutiger]

28 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I am not offended if we want to allow more immigration, I am not offended if the country decides to allow less. I am offended by the hypocrisy of letting millions of people into the country on a nod and wink for the benefit of employers without giving them rights or a path to citizenship.

Which gets back to the point I made a week or so ago which is that this problem is almost impossible to solve because there isn't consensus on what the problem actually... *is*. 

If we had an immigration system where it didn't take years for folks to apply to come, we'd probably have less illegal immigration. But a lot of Trump-style Rs (ie. the Stephen Miller crowd) have zero interest in making it easier to come here to work legally... if anything, they want to make it harder to impossible to come here and work. 

Good luck solving this issue with this level of incoherence.

[gehringer_2]

16 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Good luck solving this issue with this level of incoherence.

You can probably figure that when a problem sits in Congress for 40 yrs without resolution, it's because there are powerful interests in it not being resolved.

[mtutiger]

11 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

You can probably figure that when a problem sits in Congress for 40 yrs without resolution, it's because there are powerful interests in it not being resolved.

Probably adjacent to your point, but it's been clear to me for a while the GOP, including Trump himself, like campaigning on the issue more than actually solving anything related to it.

Which intuitively makes sense... The guys writing the checks are the ones who employee illegals, the ones casting the ballots hate illegals and respond to anti-illegal appeals (and anti-immigration appeals more broadly)

[mtutiger]

18 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Your own words.... unless I am misinterpreting, you are basically advocating for laws to be loosened for H1B applicants specifically, to make it easier for them to come here and work.

My question to you is that, given that we likewise have a need for lower skilled immigrants in a number of different sectors, do you likewise advocate for laws to be loosened to allow for it to be easier for these sorts of workers to come in as well?

And.... crickets.

Shocking.

[Tigeraholic1]

1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

And.... crickets.

Shocking.

I am all for legal immigration. 

[mtutiger]

15 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I am all for legal immigration. 

Are you all for making it easier for lower skilled workers, as you are for H1B visas for higher skilled workers?

[chasfh]

On 1/1/2025 at 2:23 PM, gehringer_2 said:

I am not offended if we want to allow more immigration, I am not offended if the country decides to allow less. I am offended by the hypocrisy of letting millions of people into the country on a nod and wink for the benefit of employers without giving them rights or a path to citizenship.

And, also, scapegoating them for practically everything that’s wrong with America, especially for a “high” crime rate that is actually low and dropping.

[chasfh]

On 1/1/2025 at 2:55 PM, mtutiger said:

If we had an immigration system where it didn't take years for folks to apply to come, we'd probably have less illegal immigration. But a lot of Trump-style Rs (ie. the Stephen Miller crowd) have zero interest in making it easier to come here to work legally... if anything, they want to make it harder to impossible to come here and work. 

I think this is because their dirty little open secret is they want to remake American education in a way that makes it far more difficult for people of modest or less means to go to college, and instead, want to track the best lower-middle, working-, and poverty-class minds into apprenticeships and entry-level middle management at best, with the rest of them being tracked into manual labor, preferably after a stint in the military for the boys.

Someone here posted a splendid meme of Kristin Bell sharing that secret with us: that the MAGA elite openly disparage the idea of university education because they want to convince you to prevent your kids from going—but not their own kids.

These ideas are related.

[Tigerbomb13]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

And, also, scapegoating them for practically everything that’s wrong with America, especially for a “high” crime rate that is actually low and dropping.

It’s especially something when undocumented immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than U.S. citizens, which is always convenient. There always needs to be a boogeyman, and what’s scarier to a lot of people than darker skinned people?

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, Tigerbomb13 said:

It’s especially something when undocumented immigrants commit crimes at a lower rate than U.S. citizens, which is always convenient. There always needs to be a boogeyman, and what’s scarier to a lot of people than darker skinned people?

Really noticeable how they've been blamed the past couple of days from terrorist incidents committed by actual American citizens and military vets.