Motor City Sonics Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 7 minutes ago, chasfh said: The closet you’re gonna get to these kinds of numbers is Shea Langeliers, and I wouldn’t mind having that guy for my catcher. How about a close-to-Detroit rotation piece and Jake Rogers for him? We need a Shortstop...........I don't care if Jake Rogers can't hit. He does great with the pitching staff. His value could drop with robot umps, but they just have to move on from Baez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 Sometimes you just see when someone is DONE Kirk Gibson's second run with the Tigers O.J. with the Niners Iverson with the Pistons Hatcher and Modano with the Wings Javy is right there. It's just obvious. Not saying his career is done, but he's done as far as being a Tiger. This isn't just a slump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 4 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said: Sometimes you just see when someone is DONE Kirk Gibson's second run with the Tigers O.J. with the Niners Iverson with the Pistons Hatcher and Modano with the Wings Javy is right there. It's just obvious. Not saying his career is done, but he's done as far as being a Tiger. This isn't just a slump. Gibson did OK in his second run with the Tigers. In his last season, he hit .260/.358/.449. His performance would make him one the best hitters on the current squad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAbbott Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 I don't expect everything to be fixed, but there has to be something that can be done to make the offense at least appear to be semi-marginal. The lineup is too short by one hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said: I would pay to see Skubal pitch. The guy is a bulldog. How much would they have to pay you to watch Baez? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 Speaking of Skubal...the resident geniuses were talking about trading him already for some hitting prospects. If KC wants to give us Bobby Witt for him even up...maybe. Other than that...no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 2 hours ago, Shinzaki said: Speaking of Skubal...the resident geniuses were talking about trading him already for some hitting prospects. If KC wants to give us Bobby Witt for him even up...maybe. Other than that...no What about Jackson Holiday ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 7 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said: Sometimes you just see when someone is DONE Kirk Gibson's second run with the Tigers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 You don't do a panic move like trading your pitching depth because if we are being honest 3 players aren't quite living up to their expectations. That's what this whole thing is about... 3 players. Torkelson, Keith, and Meadows. If you expected the other hitters to be better then that's on you. They weren't good. But these 3 mentioned players are the only ones hitting worse than I expected them to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 8 hours ago, Shinzaki said: Speaking of Skubal...the resident geniuses were talking about trading him already for some hitting prospects. If KC wants to give us Bobby Witt for him even up...maybe. Other than that...no If we were to end up trading Skubal, that would mean the whole system is broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 7 hours ago, SoCalTiger said: What about Jackson Holiday ? No...Skubal is established as a top of the rotation starter...a LH to boot. Holliday is a great prospect...but I'd be looking for a established player in his early to mid 20's in return for a Cy Young quality lefty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 They need to figure out if Tork is worth investing more time in as a cornerstone player. If not, his position is easy to replace on the market. Keith is a developmental play and the contract gives him a lot of time. The Baez decision has to come within this calendar year. The money is gone and they have to decide when to cut bait and find another solution at short. Third base is a black hole. Vierling's performance diminishes if he gets too many plate appearances. Urshels is barely playable and not a long term solution; Ibanez is a decent upgrade over Harold Castro types but if you play him too much, bad stuff starts happening. Going forward, you can't just wait for development or time to fix your issues with this. If you can't sign a free agent, take some risks and make baseball trades to raise the floor. You're wasting a very good run prevention year becuase they are waiting for something to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 (edited) 2 hours ago, oblong said: You don't do a panic move like trading your pitching depth because if we are being honest 3 players aren't quite living up to their expectations. That's what this whole thing is about... 3 players. Torkelson, Keith, and Meadows. If you expected the other hitters to be better then that's on you. They weren't good. But these 3 mentioned players are the only ones hitting worse than I expected them to. I agree panic moves are always terrible - but the problem is worse than 3 guys. These are current OPS deficits with respect to career: Gio - -120 (granted very small sample - but not off to hot start) McKinstry - -80 Kelly - - 100 Jake - -150 Javy - -150 and this one is not even vs career - it's just compared to his already terrible last season Tork - -70 (but improving) Vierling - -30 and Riley started hot but is now slumping badly - 633 OPS for May. Keith is actually coming around a bit. OPS was 387 in April, 584 so far for May. Bottom line the team is trying to stay afloat with only Canha, Carpenter and Ibanez hitting their career averages and two of those are platoon bats. -- plus Perez. If Tork gets hot that will obviously help, but I need to see more before I believe he is out of the woods. Edited May 16 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 4 hours ago, casimir said: But Kirk walked away mid-season in his last year. He wasn't the same Kirk Gibson and he knew it. For Kirk Gibson to quit in the middle of something shows me that he was just done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: I agree panic moves are always terrible - but the problem is worse than 3 guys. These are current OPS deficits with respect to career: Gio - -120 (granted very small sample - but not off to hot start) McKinstry - -80 Kelly - - 100 Jake - -150 Javy - -150 and this one is not even vs career - it's just compared to his already terrible last season Tork - -70 (but improving) Vierling - -30 and Riley started hot but is now slumping badly - 633 OPS for May. Keith is actually coming around a bit. OPS was 387 in April, 584 so far for May. Bottom line the team is trying to stay afloat with only Canha, Carpenter and Ibanez hitting their career averages and two of those are platoon bats. -- plus Perez. If Tork gets hot that will obviously help, but I need to see more before I believe he is out of the woods. There's a shortstop out there somewhere who could hit .200 with a .250 OBP and could hit at least 2 HRs in 43 games. Somewhere, someone's backup, a guy in the minors who's blocked.........and it probably wouldn't cost you that much, maybe a backup outfielder or minor league outfielder (we have a glut of those). This Javy thing must end. Just eat the money Chris. You can't tell me that there is no possible shortstop anywhere that can't be an improvement. Javy is like the the ketchup clinging to the side of an almost-empty bottle. Can't use it. Time for a new bottle. Even a dollar store brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 Baez has, by far, a career low K rate this year; Harris must be thrilled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 2 hours ago, Shinzaki said: No...Skubal is established as a top of the rotation starter...a LH to boot. Holliday is a great prospect...but I'd be looking for a established player in his early to mid 20's in return for a Cy Young quality lefty Gunnar Henderson! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 28 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said: Baez has, by far, a career low K rate this year; Harris must be thrilled Maybe there is a lession for the Tiger hitting brain trust here that one size does not fit all wrt hitting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 Baez's decrease in ISO over the last three years is remarkable: .229 .155 .104 .056 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 (edited) It makes perfect sense really. Javy was a guy with great power who made accidental contact. In encouraging him to K less and shorten up, you now have a hitter whose pitch recognition is no better than it ever was but who now no longer can do any damage by accident. The wild approach was actually part of what made Javy functional as a hitter. Take it away and he's left with nothing. It takes a lot of hubris to tell major league hitters to change what got them to the majors, and in as many cases as not, it fails anyway. These guys have spent their whole lives finding a way to hit that worked for them. The odds there is something they've haven't already tried is there, but not that large. The number of times you change a guy for the better is real enough, but shouldn't deceive anyone into thinking it can happen more than very occasionally. And to be frank, the one guy who did find something that helped turn him around (Carpenter) found it outside the Tiger system. Edited May 16 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 (edited) At this point I'd release Javy just so he has some shot at saving something of his career somewhere else because there is no hope he turns it around here. It's practically reached the point of cruelty. Edited May 16 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said: There's a shortstop out there somewhere who could hit .200 with a .250 OBP and could hit at least 2 HRs in 43 games. Somewhere, someone's backup, a guy in the minors who's blocked.........and it probably wouldn't cost you that much, maybe a backup outfielder or minor league outfielder (we have a glut of those). This Javy thing must end. Just eat the money Chris. You can't tell me that there is no possible shortstop anywhere that can't be an improvement. Javy is like the the ketchup clinging to the side of an almost-empty bottle. Can't use it. Time for a new bottle. Even a dollar store brand. Shorty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 18 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: At this point I'd release Javy just so he has some shot at saving something of his career somewhere else because there is no hope he turns it around here. It's practically reached the point of cruelty. Well I have supported Baez more than almost anyone on this board but it has reached a boiling point. But I still wouldn't release him until we have an acceptable replacement player. You can not expect an owner to eat 85 million dollars with the chance he plays better someplace else or worse harms your team in the process. However if Baez has "checked out" then you are forced into corner. Do you think Baez has given up ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 14 minutes ago, kdog said: Shorty! I'd take him over Javy right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said: But Kirk walked away mid-season in his last year. He wasn't the same Kirk Gibson and he knew it. For Kirk Gibson to quit in the middle of something shows me that he was just done. He walked away, but he was still an effective player. Baez currently is not. Big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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