Tigermojo Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 The mistake was just handing Torkelson the first base job and not creating any competition for the position. They could have picked up an experienced guy for Detroit and let Tork develop in the minors. Finally they are creating competition where guys like Baddoo and Manning don't automatically make the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 31 minutes ago, chasfh said: If true, then that's one more position Avila left us screwed on. Disagree. 24 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: As you have said before, who else should they have picked that year? Are you blaming Avila for choosing a consensus #1. This. I just wonder, has hitting a baseball been so natural for him that he never really had to work through struggles? Is that self development the issue rather than the hitting skill itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 35 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: As you have said before, who else should they have picked that year? Are you blaming Avila for choosing a consensus #1. No I am not, but if Tork borks at first, then we've been left screwed, and even if it's not Avila's fault, he at least shares responsibility. How much it would be the Avila's team fault and how much it would be Harris's will be history for the winners to write. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 12 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: The mistake was just handing Torkelson the first base job and not creating any competition for the position. They could have picked up an experienced guy for Detroit and let Tork develop in the minors. Finally they are creating competition where guys like Baddoo and Manning don't automatically make the team. Another mistake was jerking Tork's position around and pretending he could learn third at the pro level, possibly as a way to cover Avila's inability to find an actual third baseman. Although he did trade for a pretty decent one ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 17 minutes ago, casimir said: If anything, maybe the offense is boring/frustrating. But overall, you are correct, they're usually in every game. A competitive game is not necessarily a non-boring one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 1 minute ago, chasfh said: No I am not, but if Tork borks at first, then we've been left screwed, and even if it's not Avila's fault, he at least shares responsibility. How much it would be the Avila's team fault and how much it would be Harris's will be history for the winners to write. I don't blame either one or they can share the blame for not develping him. Harris's job now is to figure how much time to give him and then find a replacement if Tork can't figure it out. Neither one of those decisuons would involve Avila. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 4 hours ago, 1776 said: The Royals radio broadcast last night pointed out the strength of the Tigers by mentioning its starting pitching. I think the Tigers themselves have lived in obscurity so long now that the media doesn’t give them their full due when something does change for the better. We’ll hear more about a so-so Yankee staff before the experts tell us the Tiger staff is good. talking about 'staffs', James Rowson, now the hitting coach for the #1 offense Yankees was with the Tigers in an assistant's role when they hired him last off season. I'd love to know if the program he runs there is any resemblance to the one the Tigers use, or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I don't blame either one or they can share the blame for not develping him. Harris's job now is to figure how much time to give him and then find a replacement if Tork can't figure it out. Neither one of those decisuons would involve Avila. It depends on whether Avila's team set back his development and how far, something we can't know now, and may never, but which is a reasonable thing to speculate on based on his overall tenure, so let the speculation continue apace! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 I think Avila’s drafts were pretty good. Mize and Tork were obvious, consensus #1 overall picks. And both have seen success at the major league level. If there has been a weakness, it’s likely in player development once we source these individuals. Harris made this one of his key tenets—he now has talented players throughout the system. He’ll be judged, at least by me, on how that talent is optimized. This includes Tork—his failure will be on Harris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 3 hours ago, Tenacious D said: I think Avila’s drafts were pretty good. Mize and Tork were obvious, consensus #1 overall picks. And both have seen success at the major league level. If there has been a weakness, it’s likely in player development once we source these individuals. Harris made this one of his key tenets—he now has talented players throughout the system. He’ll be judged, at least by me, on how that talent is optimized. This includes Tork—his failure will be on Harris. Tork's failure is on Tork, the 2020 player dev disaster, and the tigers change of regimes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleMike Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 5 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said: The frustrating part is that they are 23-24, but if their hitting was just simply a little below average, they could really be something like 29-18. The pitching's been brilliant, but that offense is so inexcusably bad. That's why they frustrate me so much. I mean, getting shut out twice in a row by the worst team in baseball? That's infuriating. Plus we still can't beat the ****ing Oakland A's. The Tigers are 17th in runs scored per game. That is the definition of slightly below average. I suspect, however, that this average is skewed by the handful of games the Tigers scored in double digits. An equal culprit in the Tigers spinning their wheels the last 2-3 weeks has been the bullpen, which has blown (jusing FG's blown lead metric) the most leads in MLB. This rarely gets mentioned for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tenacious D said: I think Avila’s drafts were pretty good. Mize and Tork were obvious, consensus #1 overall picks. And both have seen success at the major league level. If there has been a weakness, it’s likely in player development once we source these individuals. Harris made this one of his key tenets—he now has talented players throughout the system. He’ll be judged, at least by me, on how that talent is optimized... I agree with all of this. The Org is loaded with Avila players: Mize, Manning, Skubal, Olson, Faedo, Lange, Foley, Brieske, Tork, Keith, Meadows, Greene, Wenceel, Carpenter, Rogers, (even Wentz), Jace Jung, Ty Madden, Jackson Jobe, Luke Gold, Tyler Mattison, Dingler, Workman, Trei Cruz, Campos... Which doesn't say ANYTHING. Half or more than half of these guys won't be on our next championship team, and that includes Tork. (Errr, yeah... here's to hoping we can get said championship within this decade... no guarantees despite my generally optimistic persona... 😉 ). It is up to Harris to add his own players, make trades, and develop what he has in the system or on Detroit's field. Although that's not on him directly (Detroit's MLB field) as that's on Hinch and Fetters and his other coaches to develop their MLB skills to the level of playoffs competitive. But as for minors development, and constructing an actual competitive TEAM... It is up to Harris to make the right evaluations, trades, and other player movements to build the roster up to that level. That's what I will judge him on: constructing the right roster out of his own, and Avila's, players. (PS: AND on minor leaguers development...). 4 hours ago, Tenacious D said: ... This includes Tork—his failure will be on Harris. This I don't agree with. If Tork fails... it could be simply on... Tork. Or on Hinch's hitting coaches. A Tork failure means pretty close to zero to me with regards to Harris. What DOES matter to me with regards to Harris and Tork: Is that Harris recognizes Tork as the right player, or NOT the correct player, to be a part of this playoff competitive team. If Harris decides to dump Tork because he feels this team can perform better with a different 1B'man.... so be it. I don't put a Tork failure on Harris. In fact, I think I would put it on Tork. What I WANT from Harris is the ability to put the right guy at 1B, whether that's Tork or not. And his ability to GET the right guy at 1B, one way or another. Just my 2 cents. Edited May 21 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 (edited) 47 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: In fact, I think I would put it on Tork. Yeah - when I watch Torkelson I mostly see a hitter who can be better than he he is if he would make better decisions - how much better is unclear but better than he has been. The question then is what drives those decisions - his coaches or the voices in his head? Either way, until he is willing to be a more intelligent/situationally aware hitter he is going to struggle to be a productive run producer even if he does put the ball in the stands occasionally. It is sad that he missed being around Kaline, whose is exactly the kind of hitting thinking he needs to move toward IMO (i.e. he seems to want to be Babe Ruth, but he just isn't) Edited May 21 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 51 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: I agree with all of this. The Org is loaded with Avila players: Mize, Manning, Skubal, Olson, Faedo, Lange, Foley, Brieske, Tork, Keith, Meadows, Greene, Wenceel, Carpenter, Rogers, (even Wentz), Jace Jung, Ty Madden, Jackson Jobe, Luke Gold, Tyler Mattison, Dingler, Workman, Trei Cruz, Campos... Some of those players will fail and that will be Avila's fault. Some will succeed. That will be because of Harris. 😃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 1 minute ago, Tiger337 said: Some of those players will fail and that will be Avila's fault. Some will succeed. That will be because of Harris. 😃 That seems to be the general consensus... 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 I don't usually pay much attention to the third wild card until late in the season, because it's kind of lame...but the Tigers are only one game out of the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 11 hours ago, chasfh said: Another mistake was jerking Tork's position around and pretending he could learn third at the pro level, possibly as a way to cover Avila's inability to find an actual third baseman. Although he did trade for a pretty decent one ... You mean traded away a GREAT one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 14 hours ago, Tiger337 said: Some of those players will fail and that will be Avila's fault. Some will succeed. That will be because of Harris. 😃 Some of these players will fail because Harris ****ed them up, even though Avila brilliantly brought them into the system. Some of these players will succeed despite Harris, because Avila brilliantly brought them into the system. 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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