5/21/24 7:40PM Tigers @ Royals

[1984Echoes]

Just now, casimir said:

... Avila was not good at his job overall.  He made some good moves, but not enough to remain in that capacity...

And this I agree with. 100%

[Tiger337]

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Are you responding to something I said about the Tork pick?

It's more a response to Buddah, but you have said that Avila was incompetent.

Edited May 22 by Tiger337

[chasfh]

7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I'll go find where you specifically stated "the stench of Avila"...

It was in at least one of the game threads.

But aside from that; and speaking to player obtainment specifically... you seem unwilling to give any credit whatsoever for player procurement. Why? Or, again, what exactly does it take to impress you enough to give someone credit?

Again, I really don't think people here want to see an actual litigation and a defense from me of my record of Avila opinions. Even I would find that boring, and it's about me!

We were talking about the Tarik Skubal pick, and I'm willing to discuss that. So how about we get on that track and you tell me why you believe the Tarik Skubal pick was a genius move by Avila and his draft team?

[1984Echoes]

I already said why.

He's coming back from Tommy John, had only a few starts between that and the draft, and was selected in the 9th round.

Your turn.

[chasfh]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

It's more a response to Buddah, but you have said that Avila was incompetent.

Please tell me you're not making the leap from my saying Avila was incompetent, which he was, to me saying that the Tork pick was an incompetent pick, which was something I definitely did not say.

[Tiger337]

Just now, chasfh said:

Please tell me you're not making the leap from my saying Avila was incompetent, which he was, to me saying that the Tork pick was an incompetent pick, which was something I definitely did not say.

I know you have repeatedly said that Torkelson was the right pick, but you also seem to be blaming Torkelson's failure om Avila, so it's a bit confusing.  

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I know you have repeatedly said that Torkelson was the right pick, but you also seem to be blaming Torkelson's failure om Avila, so it's a bit confusing.  

The drafting of Tork is not the only part Avila was responsible for. He was also responsible for Tork's development, and it could certainly be true that picking Tork 1/1 was the right move—which to all indications at the time it was—and that Avila takes the responsibility for failing to develop Tork properly, which to all indications he did. First Avila tried to force him to become a third baseman, which was asinine and probably hindered his development. Then he rushed him up to the big leagues long before he was ready, which to all indications he did. I have opinions about why Avila did this that are outside the scope of this post. Opinions aside, the fact remains.

It is true that 2020 was a lost year, and that cannot be blamed on Avila. That whole class might have gotten ****ed up because of COVID, although on the other hand, it does look like several from that class are finding their footing in the big leagues even if Tork, who has way more trigger time up here than any of them have, possibly excepting Detmers. But the fact is that Tork was not close to being ready to come up, yet he did, and he has sucked hard for the most part ever since.

So, the $64 question is, who gets the blame for the fact that Tork is sucking right now? I think the blame an open question. It is Harris's responsibility to fix him, and they haven't, and that's on them. But I think most of us agree that Tork was already a broken toy when they came in on Sept 19, 2022, and that's on the Avila team.

Fixing a guy completely is not like flipping a light switch, but Harris did seem to get Tork going in the right direction toward the end of last year, but he's flopping around this year. Why is Tork flopping around now? Maybe the hitting coaches are giving him bad advice this year. Maybe they're giving him good advice and he doesn't want to implement it. Maybe they're giving him good advice but he's just having trouble it right. Maybe Tork thinks he doesn't need advise from hitting coaches because he got eight million dollars for being a great college hitter on his own and he thinks he can do it up here on his own. We have no way of knowing, other than parsing comments he and Hinch make about his progress. I have opinions about that, too, again, outside the scope.

So I know it's fun for some to imagine that I'm blinded by rage at Avila and can't reason logically about him because I am so emotional and irrational about him. I can say that's simply not true, because I'm not at all ruled by my emotions in any event, not that saying so would matter. People will take what they like from my and everyone else's post, and you can see for yourself how true that is. But I do like laying out my impressions of this kind of thing when asked, because it sharpens my thinking about it, so I appreciate that opportunity here.

[chasfh]

31 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I already said why.

He's coming back from Tommy John, had only a few starts between that and the draft, and was selected in the 9th round.

Your turn.

What's the genius part here? What do you see as the underlying reasons Avila picking Skubal in the ninth round was a stroke of genius? What do you think Avila saw that nobody else saw that led them to make the genius pick? Or are you implying that it was a genius move because look how he's doing now?

[CMRivdogs]

Are any of the top 10 picks in the 2020 draft having decent MLB seasons. If anyone of you had to redo the draft, who is your choice

[Motor City Sonics]

The saving grace for Avila is the fact that we also had Matt Millen and Troy Weaver around the same time he was here and compared to those to he's not so bad, but he was pretty bad...............as we watch the Royals pass us by.   Please don't let this happen with the White Sox.    Harris gets 4 years with me before I say much of anything.   Seems pretty clear that the big spending days of Mr. I are long gone, so in order for this team to be good they have to draft very well and we won't know until 2026 at the earliest,  especially with him taking a high school pick in his first draft with the Tigers.    If we aren't seeing clear indications that that first class of his is showing promise by 2026, I'm gonna be pretty pessimistic on Harris. 

[Motor City Sonics]

Are they giving Tork TOO MUCH advice?    

[buddha]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

Yes.

I think your characterization of Avila as a "stench" is offensive.

To me.

youre also the one who said this group of avila prospects was going to return us to 1984 type glory.  no offense.

i'm really at a loss as to how anyone can reasonably look at the state of the tigers for the last 8 years and say "hey, that guy did a really good job with them."

[gehringer_2]

24 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Are they giving Tork TOO MUCH advice?    

That was Hinch's view at one point last year (as per a recorded interview available somewhere for someone ambitious enough to find it, which wouldn't be me. 😉 )

That could well be. But I believe a couple of things which probably run against the grain to the general view: The first is that I don't think hitters pay all that much attention to coaching if it's not coaching they sought out because it happened to make sense - or 'click' for them. Examples would be JD, Carpenter. Every hitter knows what a fine balance it is that allows him to succeed at all and I think they are all (very rightly) reluctant to change much. But what they can decide -apart from the actual mechanics of hitting,  is what kind of hitter they want to be.

Cabrera is a case in point. When he was still a great hitter, he always made a conscious decision to play for the RBI with RISC. That was a choice, and it led to him consistently being near the top in RBI% in baseball. He could have swung for the fences all the time and put up bigger OPS and HR numbers in a career, but HE thought getting those guys in from 2B was more important to his team. That is the kind of thing is not really coach driven, it's not a matter of hitting mechanics, it's a matter of your sense of game awareness and playing for your team.

I cite this because IMHO, right now this is Tork's biggest problem. He is too worried about crushing the ball 500 feet and not about those one at a time base runners and RBI that would be the difference in those 1 run games. Now it's possible that that is the vibe he get from management - if so they should stop. But I don't know if that's true or if it's just Tork himself who can't bring himself to play the best game for his team instead of for himself.

Now, all that said, he took the ball to RF twice last night, and if that is the beginning of a shift in his approach, I'll take everything above back. But we'll see if it continues or not.

Edited May 22 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

The drafting of Tork is not the only part Avila was responsible for.

I have no problem with the way they moved him up to AAA. You really can't do much coaching when a guy is at 900+ OPS, which is where Tork was through AA. But they let him out of AAA just based on his power without him ever proving himself as a more rounded hitter (he hit only 234 in AAA) and that probably was a mistake.  You may have great power but if your bat to ball skill isn't better than 234 in AAA you are going to have some struggles in the majors. Which has been amply proved. 

(I would note that in the transition to statistics like OPS and RC, that are better measures of a hitters *productivity*, it should be lost that plain old BA is still the measure of bat to ball skill.)

Edited May 22 by gehringer_2

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

What's the genius part here? What do you see as the underlying reasons Avila picking Skubal in the ninth round was a stroke of genius? What do you think Avila saw that nobody else saw that led them to make the genius pick? Or are you implying that it was a genius move because look how he's doing now?

I've already answered this.

Why won't you answer my question on the other prospects?

I've asked you several times and you are avoiding the question.

Are you unwilling to answer Colt Keith 5th, Kerry Carpenter 19th, Beau Brieske 27th? Or you just don't have the courage?

You're dodging. I'm calling you out for dodging.

Why are you dodging my questions?

You're losing credibility with me by continuously prevaricating.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

youre also the one who said this group of avila prospects was going to return us to 1984 type glory....

I did NOT say they would return us to 1984 glory.

I said we had a crapload of prospects coming up that reminded me of the 1970's.

I made no promises to what these guys would do in MLB. They are obviously different guys. But they are NOT named Trammell, Whitaker, Parrish, Gibson, Morris, Petry, etc... Their names are, obviously, different.

And everything I said was absolutely correct.

Homegrown on the Tigers: Greene, Tork, Carpenter, Mize, Manning, Skubal, Perez, Keith, Brieske, Foley, Lange, 

Promising, obtained in trade (at the time I was stating this farm looked like the 70's to me): Olson

Banging on MLB's door (or at least somewhat close): Dingler, Jung, Jobe, Campos, Madden, possibly a few others but more sketchy.

And to finish this off: Avila was NOT GOOD ENOUGH. I came around to that a year-ish before he was fired. Call me late. And so now it's on Harris to turn this group of guys into a playoff-competitive team. I have ALSO said EXACTLY THAT. I didn't PROMISE playoffs, or guarantee them; I said work would still need to be done to whip these guys into a playoff type team. And there would be guys who didn't make the cut, or would be traded to find they right guy because they weren't.

Just to state the whole picture. Laid out correctly.

 

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

... I'm really at a loss as to how anyone can reasonably look at the state of the tigers for the last 8 years and say "hey, that guy did a really good job with them."

Also...

I have NOT stated he did a good job.

In fact, I made a list of problems I had with him and stated these were why he should be fired. I think chas even helped out with a few.

But I AM saying he should get credit where credit is due, instead of being **** on by people in here all the time. In fact... I think I accused chas of calling it an Avila "stench", but buddha, I think it was actually you who said the "stink of Avila"... correct me if I'm wrong.

He gets credit for starting up analytics for the Tigers. Both the data system and the hiring of analytical minds.

But he gets FAULT for being too slow, for being in over his head, for not knowing how to apply the analytics, and for slow-bringing in new hires that would fix this problem.

He gets credit for finding talent internationally, or in the draft, even if he was not the guy who pulled the trigger. And for hiring the right guys that found or recommended or signed these players.

He gets FAULT, again, for not hiring the right guys for multiple years in which most of the improvements in player acquisition were in the last couple years of his regime. Again, too late, too slow.

He gets FAULT for NOT scouring the waiver wires trying to improve the bottom of the roster. Laziness?

He gets FAULT for falling in love with his own players and not moving on after they've proved themselves inadequate.

He gets FAULT for the crappy product on the field for the entirety of his regime.

He gets fault for, simply put, just being NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

He gets credit for smaller deals in which he brought in guys who at least have a chance to contribute, including Olson, Wentz, Candelario & Paredes.

He gets FAULT for MUCKING up the bigger trades.

He gets FAULT for (IMO) being GUN-SHY about any further big trades because he mucked up the first ones so badly.

There's probably more but... I'm running out of gas and most of the additional listing would all be faults.

As you can see... there's not a whole lot of credit in there. But our next contender, once Harris fixes everything Avila mucked up... will be about HALF Avila guys. On a WAG... Will Avila get credit for that. Or will people just continue to **** all over him and just deny the obvious.

Asking for a friend.

 

[Dtrain72]

Team A had 56 wins last season is now a legit contender for the Central division and a playoff run this season, team B is the Tigers.

[Tigermojo]

8 minutes ago, Dtrain72 said:

Team A had 56 wins last season is now a legit contender for the Central division and a playoff run this season, team BRUTAL is the Tigers.

Fixed it.

[buddha]

49 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Also...

I have NOT stated he did a good job.

In fact, I made a list of problems I had with him and stated these were why he should be fired. I think chas even helped out with a few.

But I AM saying he should get credit where credit is due, instead of being **** on by people in here all the time. In fact... I think I accused chas of calling it an Avila "stench", but buddha, I think it was actually you who said the "stink of Avila"... correct me if I'm wrong.

He gets credit for starting up analytics for the Tigers. Both the data system and the hiring of analytical minds.

But he gets FAULT for being too slow, for being in over his head, for not knowing how to apply the analytics, and for slow-bringing in new hires that would fix this problem.

He gets credit for finding talent internationally, or in the draft, even if he was not the guy who pulled the trigger. And for hiring the right guys that found or recommended or signed these players.

He gets FAULT, again, for not hiring the right guys for multiple years in which most of the improvements in player acquisition were in the last couple years of his regime. Again, too late, too slow.

He gets FAULT for NOT scouring the waiver wires trying to improve the bottom of the roster. Laziness?

He gets FAULT for falling in love with his own players and not moving on after they've proved themselves inadequate.

He gets FAULT for the crappy product on the field for the entirety of his regime.

He gets fault for, simply put, just being NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

He gets credit for smaller deals in which he brought in guys who at least have a chance to contribute, including Olson, Wentz, Candelario & Paredes.

He gets FAULT for MUCKING up the bigger trades.

He gets FAULT for (IMO) being GUN-SHY about any further big trades because he mucked up the first ones so badly.

There's probably more but... I'm running out of gas and most of the additional listing would all be faults.

As you can see... there's not a whole lot of credit in there. But our next contender, once Harris fixes everything Avila mucked up... will be about HALF Avila guys. On a WAG... Will Avila get credit for that. Or will people just continue to **** all over him and just deny the obvious.

Asking for a friend.

 

i dont see how you can give him credit for starting things years after other teams have done it.  like it waa a good thing.  he was a day late and a dollar short.

not every individual move was bad, but collectively they were awful.  he never rebounded from his initial terrible free agent signings and inability to get a good return for the stars on the team.

he was the worst gm since randy smith and led the tigers through the worst period in franchise history.  his parting gift to us is the worst offensive regular player in mlb.  he was a complete failure.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

I've already answered this.

Why won't you answer my question on the other prospects?

I've asked you several times and you are avoiding the question.

Are you unwilling to answer Colt Keith 5th, Kerry Carpenter 19th, Beau Brieske 27th? Or you just don't have the courage?

You're dodging. I'm calling you out for dodging.

Why are you dodging my questions?

You're losing credibility with me by continuously prevaricating.

Please relax and stop haranguing at me.

If as you say you’ve already answered this, it appears your answer is Avila was a genius because he drafted Skubal in the ninth round and he happened to have succeeded, that it has nothing to do with anything Avila knew before the draft, and everything to do with how Skubal happened to do after it. So, genius after the fact.

Of course, that could be due as much to luck as anything else. Otherwise we’d have to conclude that the Dodgers taking Mike Piazza in the 63rd round, or whatever it was, was also a genius move.

But the fact is the reason Avila, David Chadd, and the gang picked Skubal in the ninth round is because Scott Boras used his long-standing relationship with Ilitch and that front office to recommend that they take Skubal. The Tigers had wanted to draft another of Boras’s clients and he was drafted out from under them, so Boras recommended Skubal and they took him instead. The Tigers brain trust had the same injury concerns about Skubal as everyone else did, and they probably weren’t going to choose him at all, but because they trusted Boras at least as much as whatever it was their own information was telling them, they decided to, in their own words, “roll the dice” on Skubal and select him. And what do you know! It worked! 

Since there was no strategy aforethought in drafting Skubal, and they just did so because they “rolled the dice” to select him, I disagree with the idea that it was a genius move on Al Avila’s part. They took a chance, and it worked out. It was luck. And as the man said, I’d rather be lucky than good.

[1984Echoes]

38 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If as you say you’ve already answered this, it appears your answer is Avila was a genius because ...

I NEVER said Avila was a genius.

That is YOUR word, not mine.

Awesome mischaracterization.

 

 

Edited May 22 by 1984Echoes

[1984Echoes]

38 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Please relax and stop haranguing at me...

Fine.

Your refusal to answer any question I ask and your demand that I must answer your questions to your specific satisfaction says to me that you prefer to just blow me off. I've answered every single question you've ever asked of me. Maybe I didn't give you the answer you wanted... but I answered.

I'm never answering another question you pose.

Sorry.

 

[1984Echoes]

44 minutes ago, buddha said:

i dont see how you can give him credit for starting things ...

He started things. That needed starting. Full stop.

He drafted quite a few MLB-quality prospects, and made some minor trades for same, and signed a couple internationals, same. Full stop.

He hired Ryan Garko and AJ Hinch. Full stop.

I don't see how you can give him a ZERO and not stoop to the barest of bottoms to say yeah, OK, he did that.

That does NOT NEGATE the rest of your post.

[chasfh]

4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I NEVER said Avila was a genius.

That is YOUR word, not mine.

Awesome mischaracterization.

This ⬆ after this ⬇

In which you're essentially challenging me to deny that these are all genius moves! 💀💀💀

And I answered the question on Tarik Skubal, which was all I ever brought up, in exhaustive detail. But just to answer your other questions from that same post:

Kerry Carpenter in the 19th round? Not a genius move.

Tarik Skubal in the 9th round? No.

Jason Foley? Signed as an undrafted free agent? No.

Colt Keith in the 5th round? No.

Beau Brieske in the 27th round? No.

Reese Olson, obtained in trade for Daniel Norris? No.

Wenceel Perez, signed as a 16 y.o. free agent in 2016 for $550K? No.

None of these are genius moves, in my opinion. But if you think they're genius moves, or if you don't, either way, that's fine. I won't yell at you for it.