1984Echoes Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 1 minute ago, chasfh said: This ⬆ after this ⬇ ... In which you're essentially challenging me to deny that these are all genius moves! ... Again, that was YOUR word, NOT mine. So yes... I used YOUR word to throw back a challenge. So forget YOUR word, genius. My word has ALWAYS and ONLY been CREDIT. Does Avila get credit for ANYTHING in your mind? Or NOTHING? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 20 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: I NEVER said Avila was a genius. That is YOUR word, not mine. Awesome mischaracterization. Look, I really don't like the kind of interpersonal drama you appear to thrive on, and I want to spare the people any more of whatever this is, so maybe we should just part as friends while we still can. Best of everything to you. Go Tigers, Go Biden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 3 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: I NEVER said Avila was a genius. That is YOUR word, not mine. Awesome mischaracterization. whatever word you want to use. you've extolled the virtues of al avila repeatedly, and said he laid the foundation for the next great detroit team. and so far, you have been wrong. you should own it instead of splitting hairs about "genius" and "1970s prospects and not 1980s team dominance." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 3 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: He started things. That needed starting. Full stop. He drafted quite a few MLB-quality prospects, and made some minor trades for same, and signed a couple internationals, same. Full stop. He hired Ryan Garko and AJ Hinch. Full stop. I don't see how you can give him a ZERO and not stoop to the barest of bottoms to say yeah, OK, he did that. That does NOT NEGATE the rest of your post. he instituted advances in detroit's system YEARS after other organizations had done it. that's not a mark of success in my eyes. and let's not forget, avila was a top exec in the previous org who disdained such advances. and avila himself, upon taking control of the org, did not immediately implement changes and instead kept the same old fashioned regime in place for years. he was kept in his job because chris illitch didnt know any better and it was the easiest solution. and he proved ALL of us doubters right by failing to make the organization better when they were good (jordan zimmerman? mark lowe?) and then failing to capitalize on the organization's assets to make them better long term (the best return they received for the best hitter on the market and a generational pitcher is jake freaking rogers. a back up catcher.) so yes, his STINK is still being excised by this organization. and yes, if he got one right, it is mitigated by the 10 he got wrong. he is a failure as a gm and he set the tigers back a decade, and your obsessive love for every tigers prospect no matter how middling they may be will not change the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 5 minutes ago, buddha said: so yes, his STINK is still being excised by this organization. and yes, if he got one right, it is mitigated by the 10 he got wrong. he is a failure as a gm and he set the tigers back a decade, and your obsessive love for every tigers prospect no matter how middling they may be will not change the results. The Harris admin will get most of the draft picks "wrong" too. The hope is that they hit on 2 out of 10 instead of 1 out of 10. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 8 minutes ago, buddha said: he instituted advances in detroit's system YEARS after other organizations had done it. that's not a mark of success in my eyes. and let's not forget, avila was a top exec in the previous org who disdained such advances. and avila himself, upon taking control of the org, did not immediately implement changes and instead kept the same old fashioned regime in place for years. he was kept in his job because chris illitch didnt know any better and it was the easiest solution. and he proved ALL of us doubters right by failing to make the organization better when they were good (jordan zimmerman? mark lowe?) and then failing to capitalize on the organization's assets to make them better long term (the best return they received for the best hitter on the market and a generational pitcher is jake freaking rogers. a back up catcher.) so yes, his STINK is still being excised by this organization. and yes, if he got one right, it is mitigated by the 10 he got wrong. he is a failure as a gm and he set the tigers back a decade, and your obsessive love for every tigers prospect no matter how middling they may be will not change the results. Just you wait until Steven Moya makes his return to Detroit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: The Harris admin will get most of the draft picks "wrong" too. The hope is that they hit on 2 out of 10 instead of 1 out of 10. But I agree Avila didn't get much for the All Stars he was forced to trade. Don't forget, he was told to cut payroll so he really had no choice. Did other teams know this? If so, I could see the lowered offers. But just wait until Franklin Perez comes back and wins back to back Cy Young awards. We'll wish we still had Avila........naw....🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 9 hours ago, casimir said: Just you wait until Steven Moya makes his return to Detroit. him and rey rivera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 regarding the JV trade.... remember that he still had some question marks and had 10-5 rights. Allegedly the Tigers had to convince him to waive them and obviously he wouldn't go to a crappy team. And they had to pay part of his deal. It wasn't like the Tigers were sitting in the catbird seat when it came to moving him. I don't fault Avila for the returns on the "stars". JD was sitting around in FA waiting to be signed. Fans over value their own guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 7 minutes ago, oblong said: regarding the JV trade.... remember that he still had some question marks and had 10-5 rights. Allegedly the Tigers had to convince him to waive them and obviously he wouldn't go to a crappy team. And they had to pay part of his deal. It wasn't like the Tigers were sitting in the catbird seat when it came to moving him. I don't fault Avila for the returns on the "stars". JD was sitting around in FA waiting to be signed. Fans over value their own guys. As far as the "star" trades, we don't know what was offered. So, that part is just an unknown to me. But we do know this organization struggled to develop players. That aspect of the organization in general falls on Avila and others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 36 minutes ago, oblong said: regarding the JV trade.... remember that he still had some question marks and had 10-5 rights. Allegedly the Tigers had to convince him to waive them and obviously he wouldn't go to a crappy team. And they had to pay part of his deal. It wasn't like the Tigers were sitting in the catbird seat when it came to moving him. I don't fault Avila for the returns on the "stars". JD was sitting around in FA waiting to be signed. Fans over value their own guys. In hindsight, I wish they had kept both and not extended Cabrera. Win or lose as a team. I think most fans would have loved to have followed Verlander through his legendary career. As for Martinez, they basically just gave him away. His market may not have been good at the time because teams were not looking for that type of hitter, but he definitely had baseball value as a hitter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 yeah I often wonder the fortunes of this team had they not extended Cabrera and figured a way to keep JV, JD, and possibly Max. The team really went through some huge decisions in the 2013-2015 time frame that set them down the wrong path. Saurez. Robbie Ray. I think they could have sustained things as they had some cheap talent but the key was not extending Cabrera, and possibly letting Victor go prior to 2014, although he had a good year and they only won the division by a game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 11 hours ago, Sports_Freak said: But I agree Avila didn't get much for the All Stars he was forced to trade. Don't forget, he was told to cut payroll so he really had no choice. Did other teams know this? If so, I could see the lowered offers. But just wait until Franklin Perez comes back and wins back to back Cy Young awards. We'll wish we still had Avila........naw....🤣 Fun fact: Franklin Perez is now pitching for the Gary SouthShore RailCats of the non-affiliated American Association, where he has pitched 4-1/3 innings in three games and has given up eight hits, five walks, and eight earned to an 0-1 record and a 16.62 ERA. Serious question: how much was Franklin Perez a mirage, and how much was he merely ****ed up by Avila administration coaching? Because even the prospect guru at Fangraphs thought the following winter that Perez projected to be an "above-average big-league starter", albeit with "a bit more developmental distance to travel than you might think given his level". Maybe we'll learn someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 59 minutes ago, oblong said: yeah I often wonder the fortunes of this team had they not extended Cabrera and figured a way to keep JV, JD, and possibly Max. The team really went through some huge decisions in the 2013-2015 time frame that set them down the wrong path. Saurez. Robbie Ray. I think they could have sustained things as they had some cheap talent but the key was not extending Cabrera, and possibly letting Victor go prior to 2014, although he had a good year and they only won the division by a game. Also Willy Adames, a well-rounded shortstop who very quietly (to us) has fashioned a 20-win career into the age 28 season. And don't get me going on Isaac Paredes, an unforced error at the very end. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 6 minutes ago, chasfh said: Fun fact: Franklin Perez is now pitching for the Gary SouthShore RailCats of the non-affiliated American Association, where he has pitched 4-1/3 innings in three games and has given up eight hits, five walks, and eight earned to an 0-1 record and a 16.62 ERA. Serious question: how much was Franklin Perez a mirage, and how much was he merely ****ed up by Avila administration coaching? Because even the prospect guru at Fangraphs thought the following winter that Perez projected to be an "above-average big-league starter", albeit with "a bit more developmental distance to travel than you might think given his level". Maybe we'll learn someday. By my rough count he pictched about 70 innings for the TIgers org.... not sure they had a chance to mess him up unless it was the medical staff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: 2 hours ago, oblong said: In hindsight, I wish they had kept both and not extended Cabrera. this was the correct strategy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 23 Share Posted May 23 3 minutes ago, oblong said: By my rough count he pictched about 70 innings for the TIgers org.... not sure they had a chance to mess him up unless it was the medical staff. He didn't lift a ball for us in the final two months of 2017, so Perez was probably damaged goods from the knee which was almost certainly covered up by the Astros, something the Fangraphs guru probably couldn't have known when he wrote his assessment that offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 On 5/22/2024 at 9:13 PM, buddha said: ... and your obsessive love for every tigers prospect no matter how middling they may be ... You seem pretty upset that I support a lot of our Tigers prospects or am interested in following them. Please put me on ignore and I'll do the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 On 5/23/2024 at 7:15 AM, oblong said: regarding the JV trade.... remember that he still had some question marks and had 10-5 rights. Allegedly the Tigers had to convince him to waive them and obviously he wouldn't go to a crappy team. And they had to pay part of his deal. It wasn't like the Tigers were sitting in the catbird seat when it came to moving him. I don't fault Avila for the returns on the "stars". JD was sitting around in FA waiting to be signed. Fans over value their own guys. he begged to go to the cubs. instead, the cubs traded eloy jimenez and dylan cease for jose quintana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 5 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: You seem pretty upset that I support a lot of our Tigers prospects or am interested in following them. Please put me on ignore and I'll do the same. oh boo fricking hoo. you dish it out all the time, you can take it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 10 hours ago, buddha said: he begged to go to the cubs. instead, the cubs traded eloy jimenez and dylan cease for jose quintana. I thought maybe they’d regret Eloy, but everyone knew they’d regret Cease. Trades was the one Achilles heel SuperTheo had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 (edited) 3 hours ago, chasfh said: I thought maybe they’d regret Eloy, but everyone knew they’d regret Cease. Trades was the one Achilles heel SuperTheo had. cubs fans still lament that trade. theo is one of the only guys who lost trades with al avila. Edited May 25 by buddha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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