5/25 1:10PM Blue Jays @ Tigers

[casimir]

1 hour ago, Hongbit said:

I hate this idea.  Let the closer close 

I liked Hinch’s reasoning for using Foley in the 8th.  I have no problem with it whatsoever.  I think it was the smart play.

[casimir]

1 hour ago, Edman85 said:

Use the righty against the right-handed core of the lineup. Let Holton face the bottom of the order and take the LHB pinch hitters out of Schneider's holster.

Right call. I'm glad it worked.

Yup.

Additionally, if Hinch goes with an inferior RP vs the middle of the order, Foleyor whomever else might not get a save opportunity.

[casimir]

35 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

I’m not a fan of closer by committee when you have a decent closer.  I think Foley has earned that right based on how he’s pitched this year:   

Foley is probably their best reliever.  Why not use him against the middle of the order rather than the bottom of the order where pinch hitting is more probable?

[Tigermojo]

Holton has been their best reliever in May.

[Sports_Freak]

8 minutes ago, casimir said:

I liked Hinch’s reasoning for using Foley in the 8th.  I have no problem with it whatsoever.  I think it was the smart play.

Sometimes the closer needs to face their better hitters. RH hitters that wouldn't be PH for. It was the right call. IMO.

[Hongbit]

Hinch has tried similar logic and it’s failed and cost us games at least twice this season.   There’s no real right or wrong way.  I am of the opinion that using the closer in closer situations will come out better more times than trying to play the matchups and putting reliever into a situation that he’s not normally accustomed to pitching in.   

[casimir]

1 minute ago, Tigermojo said:

Holton has been their best reliever in May.

That’s fair.  Foley has had his struggles lately.  In general and for the season, I think Foley has been better.  If the stats say otherwise, I’ll eat it.  I still think the deployment that Hinch used was the right call.

I will say, I was a bit disappointed when Olson was taken out.  He was pitching well. He was close to the end of his day.  I just wonder, if Canha converts the out at 1B like he should have, does he stay in the get the 3rd out?  Kiner-Falefa is probably still at 2B in that instance.

[casimir]

3 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Hinch has tried similar logic and it’s failed and cost us games at least twice this season.   There’s no real right or wrong way.  I am of the opinion that using the closer in closer situations will come out better more times than trying to play the matchups and putting reliever into a situation that he’s not normally accustomed to pitching in.   

So who did you want against the middle of Toronto’s batting order?

[Hongbit]

FWIW, Holton’s splits against RH are excellent.  I don’t see any reason why he shouldn’t normally settle into the 8th inning setup role going forward.  

[Hongbit]

Just now, casimir said:

So who did you want against the middle of Toronto’s batting order?

Holton

[casimir]

Just now, Hongbit said:

FWIW, Holton’s splits against RH are excellent.  I don’t see any reason why he shouldn’t normally settle into the 8th inning setup role going forward.  

That’s true.  But he was also warming up in the 8th in the event of PHs after Springer in the 8th.  Now he’s hot.  He can be brought into the game today.  Perhaps Foley can be used tomorrow for a short bit with the day off on Monday (which is junk), although that would be the 3rd game in a row.

[casimir]

4 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Holton

I think that’s reasonable.  But I still prefer the way it was done.

[Hongbit]

I am also of the opinion that Hinch overthinks too much with most aspects of the job.  That’s just my personal bias towards him though.   

[casimir]

5 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

I am also of the opinion that Hinch overthinks too much with most aspects of the job.  That’s just my personal bias towards him though.   

But we can agree it’s better to debate after a win than a loss, yes?

[gehringer_2]

49 minutes ago, casimir said:

Foley is probably their best reliever.  Why not use him against the middle of the order rather than the bottom of the order where pinch hitting is more probable?

the whole psychology and habit around closing is just that, psychology and habit. Jim Leyland showed us in '06 that using your best reliever when the leverage was highest should be the way to go, but the habits formed in baseball culture, which includes the fans, the press, management and even the players, all pressure teams to have closers. It make very little actual sense statistically or tactically. Even the argument that the 9th is somehow harder to pitch is only true because players have come to believe it.

[oblong]

7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

the whole psychology and habit around closing is just that, psychology and habit. Jim Leyland showed us in '06 that using your best reliever when the leverage was highest should be the way to go, but the habits formed in baseball culture, which includes the fans, the press, management and even the players, all pressure teams to have closers. It make very little actual sense statistically or tactically. Even the argument that the 9th is somehow harder to pitch is only true because players have come to believe it.

He always said managing in the AL was harder than the NL. Once the game starts the managers primary job is pitching management. In the NL the P in the batting order often made that decision for you. Throw in the “roles” then why do you need a manager?   at the end of the day the players have to make the outs and they determine whether a move is good or not. A manager is there to guage the situation with regard to that particular matchup in that moment.  The stats won’t always be there. 

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

But we can agree it’s better to debate after a win than a loss, yes?

Most definitely...

Yes.

[Hongbit]

53 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

. Jim Leyland showed us in '06 that using your best reliever when the leverage was highest should be the way to go, but the habits formed in baseball culture, which includes the fans, the press, management and even the players, all pressure teams to have closers. It make very little actual sense statistically or tactically. Even the argument that the 9th is somehow harder to pitch is only true because players have come to believe it.

This was never a this side is right and that side is wrong.    As counter to your Jim Leyland example, Dusty Baker showed us in 2022 that defining roles and putting guys in their expected situation is also the way to go.   They rolled to the title with a lethal combo of Neris, Abreu, Montero, Presley.    Kept this same rotation when ahead and rolled past the Mariners, Yankees, and Phils.  

[kdog]

I align with Hinch's philosophy. You use your best reliever in the highest leverage situation. If you can't get 3 outs later, you probably don't have enough guys...That's the Tigers current problem. Lange has been exiled, Chafin is up and down, Wentz and Faedo have both been roughed up recently. Even Foley has been less effective with the velocity coming down. There aren't any perfect choices.

[kdog]

They are a little better this season. KC and Cleveland's crazy starts have skewed things a bit. 

[gehringer_2]

34 minutes ago, kdog said:

I align with Hinch's philosophy. You use your best reliever in the highest leverage situation. If you can't get 3 outs later, you probably don't have enough guys...That's the Tigers current problem. Lange has been exiled, Chafin is up and down, Wentz and Faedo have both been roughed up recently. Even Foley has been less effective with the velocity coming down. There aren't any perfect choices.

And don't forget Miller to the IL.

Foley is a good a pitcher, but it's not the profile to bring into an existing high leverage situation - he should start innings clean. That's where you miss Lange - who was that guy when he could throw strikes. Vest and Faedo don't have the K rate, Wentz flashes  a good K rate but is inconsistent overall and the fastball may or may not be there outing to outing. You don't want Chafin facing too many RHH. Holton is probably going it have it fall to him by default like today more often.

The fireballing 10+K/9 artist is the unfilled resume in this season's bullpen. Doesn't seem to be a candidate in the org close either.

Edited May 26 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

18 hours ago, kdog said:

They are a little better this season. KC and Cleveland's crazy starts have skewed things a bit. 

I disagree that this year is just a little better. This year is a lot better. Based just on the runs for and against listed in the tweet, last year's pythag record after 52 games is .392, which is a little more than 20 wins. This year's is .494, which is close to 26 wins. That's at least five wins better in terms of runs differential.