casimir Posted May 27 Author Share Posted May 27 1 minute ago, Sports_Freak said: But I really think Hinch learned an important lesson from that. He would never put up with that now, I bet. At least, I hope. Hiring Cora really isn't a good look, he was the bench coach in Houston at the time? The hiring a sibling thing kind of bothers me from a different perspective. I am my own person, completely separate from what my siblings are. I worry the past of specifically one would adversely affect me when job hunting. So even though they are brothers, why do we assume the Coras are alike enough that Joey’s resume should be hindered by Alex’s past? That’s not fair at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted May 27 Author Share Posted May 27 3 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said: It's a game of outs and bunting gives them away so do not bunt. Simple. Unless you’re Nook Logan. Then you should be able the drop a bunt double before anyone knows what just happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 1 minute ago, SoCalTiger said: It's a game of outs and bunting gives them away so do not bunt. Simple. true. But I will say that having Baez as next hitter with a DP in order should get consideration as a mitigating factor. If he has a well above normal probability of hitting into a DP compared to the average player, and Perez had a high probability of bunting successfully, it does moves the calculation. But both those things need to be true. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 (edited) 16 minutes ago, chasfh said: If a guy is a workplace superstar and the big boss in the office wants them to cheat, they’re not going to listen to their immediate supervisor who is definitely not on the same page telling them he wishes they would not do it. That’s just Workplace Politics 101. Hinch’s only moves were to quit, or to try to navigate through it, because stopping them doing it just wasn’t going to happen, and it was literally an impossible situation to find himself in. I do not think any less of him as a leader for not being able to affect it. We’ll simply have to agree to disagree on this. Do you think the same think would have happened to Leyland? Anderson? Edited May 27 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 3 minutes ago, casimir said: The hiring a sibling thing kind of bothers me from a different perspective. I am my own person, completely separate from what my siblings are. I worry the past of specifically one would adversely affect me when job hunting. So even though they are brothers, why do we assume the Coras are alike enough that Joey’s resume should be hindered by Alex’s past? That’s not fair at all. I agree 100%. I was always judged by my older brothers behavior. He was a major trouble maker. My problem with Cora is all the runners getting thrown out at home plate, some by a mile. With a team having problems scoring runs, giving away outs sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 1 minute ago, Tiger337 said: Do you think the same think would have happened to Leyland? Anderson? Anderson and Leyland were much more established and respected skippers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 2 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: Anderson and Leyland were much more established and respected skippers. What about Leyland with the Pirates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 6 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: true. But I will say that having Baez as next hitter with a DP in order should get consideration as a mitigating factor. If he has a well above normal probability of hitting into a DP compared to the average player, and Perez had a high probability of bunting successfully, it does moves the calculation. But both those things need to be true. Hinch really escaped fans wrath. Can you imagine if Javy got a hit and Tork got thrown out at home on a bang bang play? Not using a pinch runner was a very lazy piece of managing. Matt V. bailed him out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 1 minute ago, Tiger337 said: What about Leyland with the Pirates? We don't know that they didn't cheat. Sure, they didn't get caught but you never know. Stealing signs was always a part of baseball but some may consider it cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 1 minute ago, Sports_Freak said: We don't know that they didn't cheat. Sure, they didn't get caught but you never know. Stealing signs was always a part of baseball but some may consider it cheating. No, I meant if the Pirates tried to cheat the way the Astros did And Leyland didn't like it, would Leyland have done anything about it? The Pirates problem was cocaine - something that Chuck Tanner did not handle well,. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: No, I meant if the Pirates tried to cheat the way the Astros did And Leyland didn't like it, would Leyland have done anything about it? The Pirates problem was cocaine - something that Chuck Tanner did not handle well,. I believe Anderson and Leyland had a higher regard and respect for the game than Hinch ever will. Sparky refusing to manage replacement players says more about his respect for the integrity of the game than I could say for him. Anderson signed his resignation papers on the game he loved that spring without fully realizing it at the time. Leyland & Anderson are HOF members that were never good players. They’re in because they respected the game and brought integrity to the dugout. They were winners on and off the field. I don’t see Hinch ever being that guy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: Hinch really escaped fans wrath. Can you imagine if Javy got a hit and Tork got thrown out at home on a bang bang play? Not using a pinch runner was a very lazy piece of managing. Matt V. bailed him out... OTOH, If Torkelson is suddenly hot with the bat, you don't want to take his bat out of a game that could to extras. When you have really bad bats in the lineup all your options are bad, just like when you have a bunch of bad relief pitchers. Edited May 27 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 57 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: No, I meant if the Pirates tried to cheat the way the Astros did And Leyland didn't like it, would Leyland have done anything about it? The Pirates problem was cocaine - something that Chuck Tanner did not handle well,. Ever see Leyland go off on Bonds? I don't think he would tolerate too much misbehaving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 12 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: OTOH, If Torkelson is suddenly hot with the bat, you don't want to take his bat out of a game that could to extras. When you have really bad bats in the lineup all your options are bad, just like when you have a bunch of bad relief pitchers. Naw...extra innings never go that deep anymore. Even 11 innings is rare. In the old days, I would agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: Naw...extra innings never go that deep anymore. Even 11 innings is rare. In the old days, I would agree. You know just because this one had 41 men reach in 9 innings no-one would be able to score in extras. 🤣 But otherwise, fair point, Edited May 27 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 51 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: You know just because this one had 41 men reach in 9 innings no-one would be able to score in extras. 🤣 But otherwise, fair point, I don't think extras would have been kind to the Tigers. We were already deep into our weak bullpen. That's why I couldn't understand not pinch running for Tork. It was pretty much a no-brainer call. Hinch nobrained it...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 Dan Campbell woulda run for Tork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said: But I really think Hinch learned an important lesson from that. He would never put up with that now, I bet. At least, I hope. Hiring Cora really isn't a good look, he was the bench coach in Houston at the time? I agree Hinch learned an important lesson, and that lesson might have been that when you take a managerial job, make sure the front office hiring you has, at the very least, the same morals and values as you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 2 hours ago, Tiger337 said: Do you think the same think would have happened to Leyland? Anderson? Not sure. For all we know, maybe either or both those guys would have bought in to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holygoat Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 12 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: Dan Campbell woulda run for Tork. Tork woulda run through a brick wall for Dan Campbell. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 2 hours ago, Tiger337 said: No, I meant if the Pirates tried to cheat the way the Astros did And Leyland didn't like it, would Leyland have done anything about it? The Pirates problem was cocaine - something that Chuck Tanner did not handle well,. Ok, here we go: assuming Leyland doesn’t like it, doesn’t buy into it—could he have stopped the players who are acting on explicit orders of the front office and the owner from carrying out a cheating scheme? I have a hard time envisioning that even Jim Leyland could make a general manager and an owner heel. After all, they hired him. They’re his boss. How does Jim Leyland use his very force of will to take control of the situation like he’s the boss and intimidate everyone, including the billionaire owner himself, into bending to his will on this? I don’t know, that sounds like fan fiction to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 18 minutes ago, chasfh said: Ok, here we go: assuming Leyland doesn’t like it, doesn’t buy into it—could he have stopped the players who are acting on explicit orders of the front office and the owner from carrying out a cheating scheme? I have a hard time envisioning that even Jim Leyland could make a general manager and an owner heel. After all, they hired him. They’re his boss. How does Jim Leyland use his very force of will to take control of the situation like he’s the boss and intimidate everyone, including the billionaire owner himself, into bending to his will on this? I don’t know, that sounds like fan fiction to me. Leyland seemed to have close relationships with players. If the players knew he disaproved a cheating scheme, they probably would have been less likely to go along with the front office and the owner. Players have a long history of labor battles with owners, so they don't automatically go along with the big boss. This is especially true of star players who can easily tell upper management to **** off if they don't like what are being told. If it's a situation where the cheating was already going on for months before Hinch even knew about, then that's on him too because he should have been more aware of what was going on fron the beginning. That kind of awareness comes from relationships with players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 36 minutes ago, chasfh said: Not sure. For all we know, maybe either or both those guys would have bought in to it? We aren't talking Tony LaRussa here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Leyland seemed to have close relationships with players. If the players knew he disaproved a cheating scheme, they probably would have been less likely to go along with the front office and the owner. Players have a long history of labor battles with owners, so they don't automatically go along with the big boss. This is especially true of star players who can easily tell upper management to **** off if they don't like what are being told. If it's a situation where the cheating was already going on for months before Hinch even knew about, then that's on him too because he should have been more aware of what was going on fron the beginning. That kind of awareness comes from relationships with players. IIRC, Sparky wouldn't play and quickly unloaded Howard Johnson because pretty much because he didn't like his conduct. If Hinch had simply benched say - Correa - or who ever the player leader was, I think he would have gotten the other players' attention. The one unassailable power a manager has is turning in the lineup card. He could have put Cora at 1b or 3b where he couldn't be part of it in the dugout. And if the GM tells him to play a guy and you tell your GM "either I control this team or you can fire me and I will blow the franchise up when they ask me why" Or even just fire me and you can have your cheating. But if he's fired from a successful team he is pretty well protected in term of getting another gig - owners don't hold each other's caprice against the guys that it falls on. Sure that would still take a lot of balls, but it's not beyond what a man *could* do if felt up against the wall. Granted it's a lot to ask of a guy who is old enough not to want to have to have start over and ambitious enough to try to navigate through. Edited May 28 by gehringer_2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted May 28 Author Share Posted May 28 1 hour ago, holygoat said: Tork woulda run through a brick wall for Dan Campbell. Tork woulda hit a home run through a brick wall for Adan Campbell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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