5/30/24 7:10PM Tigers @ Red Sox

[IdahoBert]

9 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I love what Jack is doing, but Jack is an average injury-plagued MLB pitcher on an incredible run right now.   Not trying to be Negative Nelly here, but I don't expect it to last.   To me it's a Willie Blair/Mike Fiers season.    Hopefully it continues long enough for the Tigers to get a really good hitting prospect - maybe a shortstop in a trade. 

 

As far as anything long-term.   We all need to prepare ourselves that we are going to be like the Tampa Bay Rays.  We'll fall in love with a player and at their peak they will be traded.   Skubal, Greene, Olson......all of them.   Max Clark was not drafted to be Greene's outfield mate, he was drafted to be his replacement.   That's how it's going to be around here.   Jut hope that Harris and his scouts are as good as Tampa's.  

It was a lot nicer to have an owner — however, complicated and inconsistent — who actually ended up caring about this team and who loved it instead of his children who see it as just another financial obligation, a mere business. 

[Shades of Deivi Cruz]

13 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Edited May 31 by Shades of Deivi Cruz

[RatkoVarda]

14 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I love what Jack is doing, but Jack is an average injury-plagued MLB pitcher on an incredible run right now.   Not trying to be Negative Nelly here, but I don't expect it to last.   To me it's a Willie Blair/Mike Fiers season. 

you may be right and i may be crazy, but this is not out of the blue for him. he was really, really good his first 2 full years in STL. seen as the future ace to build around. this is what a healthy Flaherty looks like. who one knows how long his health will last.

[chasfh]

45 minutes ago, IdahoBert said:

It was a lot nicer to have an owner — however, complicated and inconsistent — who actually ended up caring about this team and who loved it instead of his children who see it as just another financial obligation, a mere business. 

I had said basically as much for years while we were losing interminably with no end in sight up to the offseason of 21-22, when Little Ilitch showed he would be willing to spend at the right time when we signed Javy and Eduardo. The main reason the spending didn’t work is that Avila didn’t know what the hell he was doing, but that’s not Ilitch’s fault. He trusted his guy, got burned, and to his everlasting credit, ****-canned Avila mere months later when it became clear how terrible the signings turned out.

Now that he has signed on Harris, who had new-style GM bona fides coming in and has said all the right things since Day One, I would be genuinely surprised to see Ilitch pull the plug on all future spending and turn us into the Rays at best, and the Pirates at worst. I won’t just assume that’s going to happen at this point. I have some honestly-earned optimism about it.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I love what Jack is doing, but Jack is an average injury-plagued MLB pitcher on an incredible run right now.   Not trying to be Negative Nelly here, but I don't expect it to last.   To me it's a Willie Blair/Mike Fiers season.    Hopefully it continues long enough for the Tigers to get a really good hitting prospect - maybe a shortstop in a trade. 

As far as anything long-term.   We all need to prepare ourselves that we are going to be like the Tampa Bay Rays.  We'll fall in love with a player and at their peak they will be traded.   Skubal, Greene, Olson......all of them.   Max Clark was not drafted to be Greene's outfield mate, he was drafted to be his replacement.   That's how it's going to be around here.   Just hope that Harris and his scouts are as good as Tampa's.  

1. First bold... WHAT? Blair had a career WHIP of 1.455. Fiers a career WHIP of 1.27. 

Flaherty has a career WHIP of 1.19. This year's 1.005 closely matches his 2018-21 seasons: 1.106, 0.968, 1.215, 1.06. Seriously, WTF are you talking about? Blair was HOT GARBAGE. Fiers was average, sometimes... Flaherty is a damn fine pitcher. When he's not fighting injuries. You've got injury-plagued correct... But in the Blair/Fiers range having one good season? You are not in the correct ballpark.

2. If they offer him 2 years, or 3, and he takes it, I'll be fine with that. All the injuries are the biggest risk... so it's definitely a risk to extend him. So, if he doesn't accept and prefers FA, then yes, trade him. We'd be lucky to get a good-to-great fielding and above-average-hitting SS or Catcher back in trade... but I think there are a couple out there (meaning AA-AAA guys that are blocked). I will be fine either way... if we get one or the other of these outcomes.

3. I'm calling straight up BS. We are NOT trading all our good players. Horse ****. Where are you getting this garbage? What evidence do you have that this is the path this team will take? Because otherwise, I'm calling this straight up BULL****.

Edited May 31 by 1984Echoes

[TigerNation]

24 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I had said basically as much for years while we were losing interminably with no end in sight up to the offseason of 21-22, when Little Ilitch showed he would be willing to spend at the right time when we signed Javy and Eduardo. The main reason the spending didn’t work is that Avila didn’t know what the hell he was doing, but that’s not Ilitch’s fault. He trusted his guy, got burned, and to his everlasting credit, ****-canned Avila mere months later when it became clear how terrible the signings turned out.

Now that he has signed on Harris, who had new-style GM bona fides coming in and has said all the right things since Day One, I would be genuinely surprised to see Ilitch pull the plug on all future spending and turn us into the Rays at best, and the Pirates at worst. I won’t just assume that’s going to happen at this point. I have some honestly-earned optimism about it.

This is correct. Nothing Illitch has done to this point suggest he won't spend a reasonable amount. Will he go overboard and lose a bunch of money in a desparate attempt to win like his dad? Probably not, but the concern we won't pay out big contracts to sign players or retain our talent has no basis in reality.

Edited May 31 by TigerNation

[1984Echoes]

1 minute ago, TigerNation said:

... but the concern we won't pay out big contracts to sign players or retain our talent has no basis in reality...

Whatsoever.

[oblong]

44 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I had said basically as much for years while we were losing interminably with no end in sight up to the offseason of 21-22, when Little Ilitch showed he would be willing to spend at the right time when we signed Javy and Eduardo. The main reason the spending didn’t work is that Avila didn’t know what the hell he was doing, but that’s not Ilitch’s fault. He trusted his guy, got burned, and to his everlasting credit, ****-canned Avila mere months later when it became clear how terrible the signings turned out.

Now that he has signed on Harris, who had new-style GM bona fides coming in and has said all the right things since Day One, I would be genuinely surprised to see Ilitch pull the plug on all future spending and turn us into the Rays at best, and the Pirates at worst. I won’t just assume that’s going to happen at this point. I have some honestly-earned optimism about it.

agree.

If Chris Ilitch was going to be a no nothing owner content to rake in as much cash flow with as little effort as possible he would not have approved the hirings that went on.  They just brought on some people a few weeks ago, along with those made in the past year or so, and throw in Jason Benetti while you are at it.... those aren't cheap hires and could have easily not been made and the general public wouldn't have noticed or cared.  

[IdahoBert]

I am not used to being around so much optimism. I might even be won over to optimism.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, RatkoVarda said:

you may be right and i may be crazy, but this is not out of the blue for him. he was really, really good his first 2 full years in STL. seen as the future ace to build around. this is what a healthy Flaherty looks like. who one knows how long his health will last.

Right, the concern is not so much whether he can sustain the performance, but whether he can stay healthy which is pretty much the same concern you have with most pitchers.  

[Tiger337]

15 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Yes, He's a good player to have on the team, but if he plays too much he seems to get exposed.  Up to this point, he's been a solid utility guy.

Looking more closely at his numbers to this point and projecting to the end of the year, he looks like an average contributor (2.2 WAR).  An average player is more than a utility player and actually pretty valuable if he can do that for a few years.  

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, IdahoBert said:

I am not used to being around so much optimism. I might even be won over to optimism.

I think you gotta at least stick around and give Baby Doc at least one decent chance to make the big moves when it's time.

Those three words are carrying a lot of weight here, because now is not the time, and this winter may not be the time, either. The time will be once the base has been effectively laid down—Keith at second, possibly Jung at third, Greene stabilizes, and especially once Clark in CF and McGonigle at SS are here—and we need just one or two pieces to sign or trade for to make a full-on run for a ring. That might not be until 2027, for all we know.

But if by that time the owner has passed on trading or spending to bring solid pieces aboard, and/or we start trading young pieces like Skubal for even younger minor leaguers to put us farther away from contention—then it will be reasonable to give up on the Ilitches.

[oblong]

21 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I think you gotta at least stick around and give Baby Doc at least one decent chance to make the big moves when it's time.

Those three words are carrying a lot of weight here, because now is not the time, and this winter may not be the time, either. The time will be once the base has been effectively laid down—Keith at second, possibly Jung at third, Greene stabilizes, and especially once Clark in CF and McGonigle at SS are here—and we need just one or two pieces to sign or trade for to make a full-on run for a ring. That might not be until 2027, for all we know.

But if by that time the owner has passed on trading or spending to bring solid pieces aboard, and/or we start trading young pieces like Skubal for even younger minor leaguers to put us farther away from contention—then it will be reasonable to give up on the Ilitches.

I blame a lot of the heat on these wannbe fanboys who are all over twitter hyping up the local team to be better than they really are so casual fans set their expectations too high.  The org didn't talk playoffs for a reason.  Sure in a weak division a near .500 team could contend but we're seeing the ALC is not weak.  It's not the fault of Scott Harris that 3 other teams are playing better than reasonably expected so our .500 team is good for fourth place.   They'd be around 2nd place in 3 other divisons.

 

[Tiger337]

26 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I think you gotta at least stick around and give Baby Doc at least one decent chance to make the big moves when it's time.

Those three words are carrying a lot of weight here, because now is not the time, and this winter may not be the time, either. The time will be once the base has been effectively laid down—Keith at second, possibly Jung at third, Greene stabilizes, and especially once Clark in CF and McGonigle at SS are here—and we need just one or two pieces to sign or trade for to make a full-on run for a ring. That might not be until 2027, for all we know.

But if by that time the owner has passed on trading or spending to bring solid pieces aboard, and/or we start trading young pieces like Skubal for even younger minor leaguers to put us farther away from contention—then it will be reasonable to give up on the Ilitches.

What happens if finally gets the position players in place and the pitching staff is no longer in place?

[IdahoBert]

39 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I think you gotta at least stick around and give Baby Doc at least one decent chance to make the big moves when it's time.

Those three words are carrying a lot of weight here, because now is not the time, and this winter may not be the time, either. The time will be once the base has been effectively laid down—Keith at second, possibly Jung at third, Greene stabilizes, and especially once Clark in CF and McGonigle at SS are here—and we need just one or two pieces to sign or trade for to make a full-on run for a ring. That might not be until 2027, for all we know.

But if by that time the owner has passed on trading or spending to bring solid pieces aboard, and/or we start trading young pieces like Skubal for even younger minor leaguers to put us farther away from contention—then it will be reasonable to give up on the Ilitches.

So be it. Reminds me of the opening of the Woodstock movie:

It's been a long time comin'

It's goin' to be a long time gone.

Appears to be a long time,

Yes, a long, long, log time Before the dawn.

 

[casimir]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

What happens if finally gets the position players in place and the pitching staff is no longer in place?

Bring back the air raid sirens from Tiger Stadium circa mid 90s.

[chasfh]

4 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

What happens if finally gets the position players in place and the pitching staff is no longer in place?

I’m going to take it on faith for the time being that they will have the pitching in order by then, until they show me they don’t or can’t. I’m not buying the implication they can only do one or the other at any given time.

[Tiger337]

30 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I’m going to take it on faith for the time being that they will have the pitching in order by then, until they show me they don’t or can’t. I’m not buying the implication they can only do one or the other at any given time.

They already have the pitching in order enough for a playoff team and it's being wasted. Pitching is fickle though, so it's shame they couldn't have put together an average offense. 

[chasfh]

9 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

They already have the pitching in order enough for a playoff team and it's being wasted. Pitching is fickle though, so it's shame they couldn't have put together an average offense. 

Yes, I agree, although I also think they’re doing the best they can to make a historically-****ed organizational offensive regime right again. It was so rotted out, top to bottom, that it was never going to get completely fixed over the course of a season and a third. I also don’t think it’s even worth contemplating the idea that the Tigers will concentrate on getting hitters up to speed while ignoring pitching and letting that go to seed, as if they can’t walk and chew gum at the same time. That’s sad-sack loser thinking. I’m assuming it’s a new day for the Detroit Tigers, and I’ll continue to believe that until they prove to me that’s a mirage.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Yes, I agree, although I also think they’re doing the best they can to make a historically-****ed organizational offensive regime right again. It was so rotted out, top to bottom, that it was never going to get completely fixed over the course of a season and a third. I also don’t think it’s even worth contemplating the idea that the Tigers will concentrate on getting hitters up to speed while ignoring pitching and letting that go to seed, as if they can’t walk and chew gum at the same time. That’s sad-sack loser thinking. I’m assuming it’s a new day for the Detroit Tigers, and I’ll continue to believe that until they prove to me that’s a mirage.

They won't ignore pitching and they are good at pitching.  I am just saying that there is a lot of year to year variation in pitching, so it's hard to have a good pitching staff in place every year.  I know it's difficult when your new franchise has only two top hitting prospects and one of them looks like a bust.  

Another thing is thinking that Keith, Jung, Clark and McGonigle are all going to be key players on a championship team seems pretty optimistic.  All of them are really good prospects but going 4 for 4 oesn't happen very often.  Getting two really good players out of that goup would probably be a good outcome.     

[chasfh]

12 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Another thing is thinking that Keith, Jung, Clark and McGonigle are all going to be key players on a championship team seems pretty optimistic.  All of them are really good prospects but going 4 for 4 oesn't happen very often.  Getting two really good players out of that goup would probably be a good outcome.     

That’s true but that is what they’re planning toward, and the sign of a good front office team is moving to an effective plan B (or C, or D, etc.) when things don’t go as planned. But the good organizations somehow get good production consistently from a ridiculously high percentage of prospects, or at least they go on a good run of that for several years, so maybe we can manage to do that, too. That can’t all be random, can it?