Bears at Lions. a turkey matchup for turkey day

[RedRamage]

Campbell is the new Brandon Inge.  It, apparently, is impossible to have anything other than an extreme opinion on about him.  If you aren't 100% against him that apparently means you are 100% for him.

[MichiganCardinal]

2 hours ago, TP_Fan said:

Seriously, pound sand.  There is nothing worse than someone telling others how much to invest in a sports team or not.  You do you. Let others be themselves.

Regardless of talent, the decision making is a real problem.   Giving a free pass is the worst type of fan. 

I have season tickets to a team that hasn’t won a playoff game in my lifetime. If anyone has a commitment problem it’s me lol. All I am saying (whether it reflected well in my previous post or not) is that we shouldn’t make knee-jerk reactions based on single moments of stupidity made by players who shouldn’t be in the NFL.

I’m not a fan of the decision making either for what it’s worth. It’s not a free pass so much as it is “let’s take a step back and see what he does on a team with even a modicum amount of talent”.

[MichiganCardinal]

2 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Campbell is the new Brandon Inge.  It, apparently, is impossible to have anything other than an extreme opinion on about him.  If you aren't 100% against him that apparently means you are 100% for him.

I’m not 100% for him, I think he’s made more mistakes than I would like to see in the last few games… I’m just not willing to start a riot towards his firing yet while he’s got a practical Minor League Football team talent wise.

[sagnam]

I think it’s interesting that criticizing the play calling (which he took over), the time management, in game decisions, wearing a fucking helmet to a press conference, and all else is characterized as starting a riot.  The dude is making mistakes left and right. I don’t care if the Lions win or lose.  I would like to avoid losing 16 games again just because of the stink of it though.

 

I think there are a lot of moderate arguments that are being mischaracterized here, which isn’t really a surprise when so often people are trying to win these conversations rather than just have a conversation.

 

Dan Campbell has been objectively bad at being a head coach.  I hope he stops making bad decisions.  I don’t see the value in ignoring the bad decisions because the team is bad.  I do understand ignoring the results.

Edited November 26, 2021 by sagnam

[mtutiger]

17 minutes ago, TP_Fan said:

The issue is you keep qualifying it.  And you narrow it to play calling. The lions have been awful for 60 years, of course the issues run deeper.  Some now we should give Campbell a free pass because of it?  Today was as bad as it gets for the lions. The team held in there only for their coach to vomit on the field at the end.  That’s the biggest issue. This talentless bunch is playing hard, how long until they fully quit when their coach keeps losing the game at the end?   His egregious inability to understand clock management, use of timeouts and basic odds is why they haven’t won’t a game.  With a competent coaching staff this team would have 4 wins right now.

Does that 4 wins help them in the long run?  No. But does continually losing due to ineptitude hurt in the long run?  It absolutely does.  Campbell has shown zero ability to progress.  His decision making has regressed to the point where every person in America watched today and saw the lions had a head coach who would struggle to make it through a madden game.  And folks here want to say, “yeah I agree the play calling could improve but otherwise no issues.”   This staff is fundamentally worse than Patrica.  That is hard to phantom. But it’s true. 

I'm sorry that disapproval of Dan Campbell isn't adequate enough for you, I guess.

[mtutiger]

2 minutes ago, sagnam said:

Dan Campbell has been objectively bad at being a head coach.  I hope he stops making bad decisions.  I don’t see the value in ignoring the bad decisions because the team is bad.  I do understand ignoring the results.

Who is ignoring the bad decisions? Who is making excuses?

As far as I can tell, the big difference here is that some people are insufficiently angry at Dan Campbell in the eyes of some. And don't want to can him at this point. Its irrational, and I'm not sure how to have a fair conversation about any of this.

[Hongbit]

1 minute ago, sagnam said:

I think it’s interesting that criticizing the play calling (which he took over), the time management, in game decisions, wearing a fucking helmet to a press conference, and all else is characterized as starting a riot.  The dude is making mistakes left and right. I don’t care if the Lions win or lose.  I would like to avoid losing 16 games again just because of the stink of it though.

 

I think there are a lot of moderate arguments that are being mischaracterized here, which isn’t really a surprise when so often people are trying to win these conversations rather than just have a conversation.

 

Dan Campbell has been objectively bad at being a head coach.  I hope he stops making bad decisions.  I don’t see the value in ignoring the bad decisions because the team is bad.  I do understand ignoring the results.

I had low expectations to start that year and that was before all the injuries.  I liked the hire.  I liked some of the things I saw early in the season.  I want Dan Campbell to be good.  
 

Unfortunately all I’m seeing right now is the second coming of Rod Marinelli.  

[TP_Fan]

This thread was an awesome part of my thanksgiving.  Thanks all.  Love the passion.  Go lions.  

Edited November 26, 2021 by TP_Fan

[gehringer_2]

So the Bears ran a play that ended at something like 2:15 and Aikman is on Campbell's case on the broadcast for not using a timeout. I turn to the SO who happened to lean in over the back of the coach to check what was happening, and said, "You know, Aikman is usually spot on in his analysis but he is wrong here and Campbell is right because burning a TO only saves 15 seconds now, it will save 35 used after the 2 minute warning."

Then they come back from the timeout and the wheels fall off completely. The joys of being a Lion's fan, no positive thought comes to a good end....

Edited November 26, 2021 by gehringer_2

[Hongbit]

30 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I have season tickets to a team that hasn’t won a playoff game in my lifetime. If anyone has a commitment problem it’s me lol. All I am saying (whether it reflected well in my previous post or not) is that we shouldn’t make knee-jerk reactions based on single moments of stupidity made by players who shouldn’t be in the NFL.

I’m not a fan of the decision making either for what it’s worth. It’s not a free pass so much as it is “let’s take a step back and see what he does on a team with even a modicum amount of talent”.

I’m not sure if you are saying that he’d make different decisions if he had better players or that nothing matters now since the team is so bad and he will get better when he has more experience. 

[mtutiger]

13 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

I’m not sure if you are saying that he’d make different decisions if he had better players or that nothing matters now since the team is so bad and he will get better when he has more experience. 

I mean, does much matter at the moment? I'm amazed at how much passion there is in this debate over Dan Campbell given how low stakes it is in the grand scheme of things. This is a historically bad football team... it's not a huge shock to me that they are struggling to win games.

The previous regime left a flaming dumpster fire behind... different sport, but reminds me a lot of the flaming dumpster fire Randy Smith left behind pre 43-119 for the Tigers. 

Maybe Dan Campbell is a failure in the long run. Either way, canning him and bringing someone else in right this moment does not fix this. It just doesn't. The only thing that even begins to fix this is fixing the personnel 

Edited November 26, 2021 by mtutiger

[Hongbit]

He’s not getting fired.  He’s got at least 3 years and probably even a 4th.   

[sagnam]

42 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Who is ignoring the bad decisions? Who is making excuses?

As far as I can tell, the big difference here is that some people are insufficiently angry at Dan Campbell in the eyes of some. And don't want to can him at this point. Its irrational, and I'm not sure how to have a fair conversation about any of this.

Maybe re-read these threads where things like “let’s see what he does with a better roster” or “what do you expect him to do with a bad team” are uttered.  I don’t care how bad the team is, making bad decisions on a weekly basis is not ok.

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

He’s not getting fired.  He’s got at least 3 years and probably even a 4th.   

Dont tell me that, tell all the people on the thread that wanted him fired after today that. 

[Jason_R]

1 hour ago, RedRamage said:

Campbell is the new Brandon Inge.  It, apparently, is impossible to have anything other than an extreme opinion on about him.  If you aren't 100% against him that apparently means you are 100% for him.

I think the problem is that the guys with their panties in a bunch about Campbell are upset that some of the rest of us don’t have our panties in a bunch about him.

The franchise gave a six year contract to a head coach who, for all intents and purposes, is a rookie. OK, that means they believe in him as a leader and are going to give him time to put a staff around himself and learn. Anyone who doesn’t get this is not paying attention  

That staff will almost certainly include a new OC, and that was obvious from the time he brought on a recently fired HC. Maybe Campbell wants to call the plays so he can think in more detail about what he wants from that role. (But I do hope some guys from the board here will scribble some plays on napkins and send them to Allen Park, then keep us posted on how that goes.) That staff may also include someone who handles game management. 

Anyway, I’m still not sure how many points people think Campbell left on the board with his unpardonable coaching blunders. But maybe he kept the Bears defense from clobbering Goff into additional turnovers by being conservative after the damaged OL backed the team up a few times 30+ yards behind the sticks. It is hard to come back from six holding penalties, especially when you have no WRs and your best RB is injured. 

[mtutiger]

17 minutes ago, sagnam said:

 I don’t care how bad the team is, making bad decisions on a weekly basis is not ok.

I'm sure everyone who posts on this board agrees that making bad decisions is not OK.

At the end of the day, insofar as I can tell, this comes down to the fact that some posters are insufficiently outraged in the eyes of other posters. Not much more to do than just agree to disagree.

Edited November 26, 2021 by mtutiger

[gehringer_2]

12 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

He’s not getting fired.  He’s got at least 3 years and probably even a 4th.   

That's one of the dumb things really. The long term deal is really just a glorified buy out. If they only win one or two (or none!) this season and then don't do any better next year the pressure will be bad enough that they will be fired anyway, the Lions will just have to pony up the cash to do it. It's easy for an owner to tell people they have 'x' years when it's all smiles and rainbows and hope for the future. It's also their prerogative to bail if the numbers get into the 1 or 2 for 30 range! It's only money. 

[holygoat]

I like Dan Campbell the dude. Seems like a genuinely great guy that you'd want to coach your high school kid, and I really wanted him to succeed as Lions HC. But after 10 games, he seems completely overmatched. Talent deficit aside, this team -- coaches included -- makes way too many unforced errors and looks utterly unprepared in pressure situations. That's on the coaching staff. If they fired him this off season, I'd have no problem with it, but if they don't, his seat should be among the hotter ones in the league next season.

[TP_Fan]

6 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

I think the problem is that the guys with their panties in a bunch about Campbell are upset that some of the rest of us don’t have our panties in a bunch about him.

The franchise gave a six year contract to a head coach who, for all intents and purposes, is a rookie. OK, that means they believe in him as a leader and are going to give him time to put a staff around himself and learn. Anyone who doesn’t get this is not paying attention  

That staff will almost certainly include a new OC, and that was obvious from the time he brought on a recently fired HC. Maybe Campbell wants to call the plays so he can think in more detail about what he wants from that role. (But I do hope some guys from the board here will scribble some plays on napkins and send them to Allen Park, then keep us posted on how that goes.) That staff may also include someone who handles game management. 

Anyway, I’m still not sure how many points people think Campbell left on the board with his unpardonable coaching blunders. But maybe he kept the Bears defense from clobbering Goff into additional turnovers by being conservative after the damaged OL backed the team up a few times 30+ yards behind the sticks. It is hard to come back from six holding penalties, especially when you have no WRs and your best RB is injured. 

He has already had one go at hiring a staff. 9 games in he stripped the OC of his duties.  So let’s assume he wanted to take over play calling so he could see what he wanted in the future.  What OC talent is he going to attract?   Anyone worth their salt will steer clear because they know meathead Campbell will take away their play calling first whiff of adversity.

For me, the argument is boiled down to this: Pretty much every lions observer agreed at the beginning of the season that Campbell would have a long leash.  First year of a 6 year deal with an incredibly untalented roster.  The benefit of the doubt was built is.

However, as the season progressed some of us reassessed the situation and allowed nuance.  After 11 games, the gaffes Campbell have made are obvious of an amateur.  What’s worse though, is he is doubling down.  Because of this, it’s not a stretch to conclude he has caused damage beyond salvage and it’s not worth it to go through the motions of 2 more years.   This isn’t unheard of in sports.  Campbell hears the criticism, he talks about it in his conferences.  And he keeps making the same mistakes and then adds worse ones on top.  He is a lost cost. Cut your losses. 

[slothfacekilla]

I’m worried that Campbell is the Lions’ Steve Wilks but he’s too nice of a guy to cut bait with when you need to. I don’t think you need to fire him this week but you need to seriously evaluate him as the coach moving forward if he can’t show any improvement through the end of this season. The coaching errors seem to be on another level from the usual Lions incompetence which says a lot. I hope he does improve and he’s the coach for the Lions long term, but man that was embarrassing.  Not that Lynn was knocking it out of the park, but Campbell definitely needs to give up play calling duties. Maybe it’ll help him focus on clock management and getting the right personnel onto the field. 

[Motor City Sonics]

They aren't winning a game this year.  Not one.  Not even by accident.     Even if they other team had food poisoning because the Lions would find a way to beat themselves in a new way. 

Sorry folks, if you go 17 games and don't win one, you should be out.   

Holmes better have a good draft.  He can't afford to miss on anything in the first four round.   I want to like him, but he hasn't exactly been a good talent judge either.  

[Motor City Sonics]

Campbell could have a distinction that hasn't happened before and may never happen again.   To go winless in a season as a player and a coach WITH THE SAME TEAM.  

Jim Caldwell, I'm sorry.   You made some puzzling decisions on Sundays, but you are Vince Lombardi on this franchise.  

[TP_Fan]

1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

They aren't winning a game this year.  Not one.  Not even by accident.     Even if they other team had food poisoning because the Lions would find a way to beat themselves in a new way. 

Sorry folks, if you go 17 games and don't win one, you should be out.   

Holmes better have a good draft.  He can't afford to miss on anything in the first four round.   I want to like him, but he hasn't exactly been a good talent judge either.  

I thought he drafted pretty well.  The FA signings aren’t of concern to me because the lions were trying to take the best from scrap heap.  You don’t often find good players there.  It was understood that was the strategy coming in. 

[sabretooth]

10 hours ago, TP_Fan said:

He has already had one go at hiring a staff. 9 games in he stripped the OC of his duties.  So let’s assume he wanted to take over play calling so he could see what he wanted in the future.  What OC talent is he going to attract?   Anyone worth their salt will steer clear because they know meathead Campbell will take away their play calling first whiff of adversity.

For me, the argument is boiled down to this: Pretty much every lions observer agreed at the beginning of the season that Campbell would have a long leash.  First year of a 6 year deal with an incredibly untalented roster.  The benefit of the doubt was built is.

However, as the season progressed some of us reassessed the situation and allowed nuance.  After 11 games, the gaffes Campbell have made are obvious of an amateur.  What’s worse though, is he is doubling down.  Because of this, it’s not a stretch to conclude he has caused damage beyond salvage and it’s not worth it to go through the motions of 2 more years.   This isn’t unheard of in sports.  Campbell hears the criticism, he talks about it in his conferences.  And he keeps making the same mistakes and then adds worse ones on top.  He is a lost cost. Cut your losses. 

In addition to all of this, in his post game press conference, Campbell said that the 2nd time out was called *knowing* that it would cause a 5 yd penalty and the resulting 3rd and 4th, instead of 3rd and 9. 

In Campbells words, you couldn't afford to allow a touchdown in the 3rd 9 situation due to a blown defensive alignment.  

Actually allowing a touchdown in that situation would have at least given the offense the ball and a chance.   I realize that he wanted the defensive alignment fixed in order to avoid the TD **and** to stop the 1st down, which was actually more critical than stopping the TD.

Maybe Campbell is right and the 5 yd penalty didn't really matter, because the blown defense was going to give up any yardage that Chicago wanted in that situation, and maybe they would have gained the 1st down yardage and just sat down on the 2 yard line to milk the clock.

And maybe it's really the players' fault for blowing the defensive alignment change audibled on the field.

But at the end of the day it all comes back to the head coach in some manner, and they keep getting themselves into these twisted messed up situations at the end of competitive games because errors made by players and coaches. 

Every week it seems like some new effed up way is invented to lose a game that even we as Lions fans haven't seen before.

I would not be opposed if they fired Dan Campbell's end of the year, but I know it will never happen.

They have sunk their costs into him, and they are going to keep him through the '23 season, which basically fates this team to his influence one way or another through at least '25, because another HC in '24 (or even '23) would require a couple of seasons to retool and reset.

Its gonna be Campbell.  Lets hope he can learn and grow.

Edited November 26, 2021 by sabretooth

[Shinzaki]

For me...This is the most frustrating season in recent memory.  0-9-1 when they could easily...as in EASILY be 4-6.  First year out of the gate after the Patricia era..4-6 would look good.