Bears at Lions. a turkey matchup for turkey day

[gehringer_2]

Just now, Shinzaki said:

For me...This is the most frustrating season in recent memory.  0-9-1 when they could easily...as in EASILY be 4-6.  First year out of the gate after the Patricia era..4-6 would look good.

true. All the early hope that it was Patricia's terrible coaching that was holding back a team that *maybe* wasn't as bad as it played last season has evaporated. Now it's, "Quinn left an even worse team than we had imagined." They've been unlucky with where their injuries hit, but every team is going to lose good players to injury every year.

[Motown Bombers]

Dan Campbell wore a helmet to a pre-season press conference. Clearly not qualified. They need a more serious coach who demands punctuality and makes sure everyone at the press conference sits up straight. 

[Motown Bombers]

Dan Campbell is one of the best at using timeouts (as of week 9) but lets not have that get in the way of a good fan rant.

 

https://operations.nfl.com/gameday/analytics/stats-articles/how-do-nfl-coaches-use-their-timeouts/

Edited November 26, 2021 by Motown Bombers

[Motown Bombers]

The Lions were 0-8 without Stafford in 2019. They're 0-10-1 without him in 2021. Maybe that Stafford guy was better than some gave him credit for. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Motown Bombers

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The Lions were 0-8 without Stafford in 2019. They're 0-10-1 without him in 2021. Maybe that Stafford guy was better than some gave him credit for. 

fair point. Though OTOH, Matt Stafford would not have helped with the defensive chaos on both the field and the sideline.

[TP_Fan]

15 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The Lions were 0-8 without Stafford in 2019. They're 0-10-1 without him in 2021. Maybe that Stafford guy was better than some gave him credit for. 

I forgot how good stafford was at using timeouts on the defensive side of the ball.  

[Motown Bombers]

5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

fair point. Though OTOH, Matt Stafford would not have helped with the defensive chaos on both the field and the sideline.

Actually he would have. What's getting overlooked is that the Bears went on an over 8 minute long drive to end the game. Maybe Stafford converts an extra 3rd down or two. Maybe the Lions score 21 points instead of 14 and Chicago now needs a TD and two point conversion. Interesting how the worst coaches in the league at using timeouts have better talent. Talents wins. 

[gehringer_2]

11 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Actually he would have. What's getting overlooked is that the Bears went on an over 8 minute long drive to end the game. Maybe Stafford converts an extra 3rd down or two. Maybe the Lions score 21 points instead of 14 and Chicago now needs a TD and two point conversion. Interesting how the worst coaches in the league at using timeouts have better talent. Talents wins. 

OK sure, it's always nice to have a bigger lead, but Glenn still needs to be able to get his personnel ducks in a row. And  Anzalone? The guy looks like he carries panic with him in his back pocket. Though even that wouldn't be so bad if he didn't overrun so many plays....

Edited November 26, 2021 by gehringer_2

[Hongbit]

39 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Dan Campbell is one of the best at using timeouts (as of week 9) but lets not have that get in the way of a good fan rant.

 

https://operations.nfl.com/gameday/analytics/stats-articles/how-do-nfl-coaches-use-their-timeouts/

I read this article and it never says Campbell is the best at using timeouts.   It clearly says that both he and Meyer save more time via timeout but that is attributed to their circumstance of trailing late in so many games.  The data gives no credence to Dan Campbell being some type of timeout genius.  
 

First-year coaches Dan Campbell of the Lions (2.7 time saving timeouts per game) and Urban Meyer of the Jaguars (2.5) use the most time-saving timeouts, though much of that is likely driven by each team’s circumstance (the Lions are 0-8 and the Jaguars are 2-6).

 

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

I read this article and it never says Campbell is the best at using timeouts.   It clearly says that both he and Meyer save more time via timeout but that is attributed to their circumstance of trailing late in so many games.  The data gives no credence to Dan Campbell being some type of timeout genius.  
 

First-year coaches Dan Campbell of the Lions (2.7 time saving timeouts per game) and Urban Meyer of the Jaguars (2.5) use the most time-saving timeouts, though much of that is likely driven by each team’s circumstance (the Lions are 0-8 and the Jaguars are 2-6).

 

Right but the chart shows he's one of the best at not using unnecessary timeouts. I mean, it doesn't account for instances where timeouts should have been called that weren't but that's what fans are for. They're the best at knowing when to use timeouts. 

[sagnam]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

Dan Campbell wore a helmet to a pre-season press conference. Clearly not qualified. They need a more serious coach who demands punctuality and makes sure everyone at the press conference sits up straight. 

Clearly there’s no middle ground.  Typical post from you.

[sagnam]

If we still had Stafford we would have won several games.  This seems pretty obvious. Again, winning is not what we should be evaluating in terms of the head coach.  It’s the decisions.

Edited November 26, 2021 by sagnam

[sabretooth]

30 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Right but the chart shows he's one of the best at not using unnecessary timeouts. I mean, it doesn't account for instances where timeouts should have been called that weren't but that's what fans are for. They're the best at knowing when to use timeouts. 

Where did anybody criticize his use of TOs generally speaking? 

The concern expressed here is that he and his coaches and players have made too many critical mistakes late in games.  That doesnt necessarily mean that he generally makes mistakes with TOs, and nobody to my recollection claimed that was the case.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, sagnam said:

Clearly there’s no middle ground.  Typical post from you.

Sorry I can't get worked up over a football coach wearing a helmet to a meaningless offseason press conference where I have to mention it constantly every game as if it is relevant.

If my typical posts bother you, you're free to ignore them and not respond.

[gehringer_2]

Just now, sabretooth said:

Where did anybody criticize his use of TOs generally speaking? 

The concern expressed here is that he and his coaches and players have made too many critical mistakes late in games.  That doesnt necessarily mean that he generally makes mistakes with TOs, and nobody to my recollection claimed that was the case.

well for sure they screwed up trying to take the double TO  - but TBF it was Glenn that was going bananas trying to get the TO. If you are a HC in that spot what to you do - ignore your coordinator or assume that what he sees is worse than the cost of the penalty?

[Motown Bombers]

13 hours ago, sagnam said:

I think it’s interesting that criticizing the play calling (which he took over), the time management, in game decisions, wearing a fucking helmet to a press conference, and all else is characterized as starting a riot.  The dude is making mistakes left and right. I don’t care if the Lions win or lose.  I would like to avoid losing 16 games again just because of the stink of it though.

 

I think there are a lot of moderate arguments that are being mischaracterized here, which isn’t really a surprise when so often people are trying to win these conversations rather than just have a conversation.

 

Dan Campbell has been objectively bad at being a head coach.  I hope he stops making bad decisions.  I don’t see the value in ignoring the bad decisions because the team is bad.  I do understand ignoring the results.

 

21 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I get it, I thought Holmes should have been given full autonomy to hire his guy, prior to Campbell coming in. I don't disagree that his clock and time management at times have head scratching. As has his play calling, deciding to run on 2nd or 3rd and long. That said, I think what Campbell and Lynn want to really do is hamstrung by how bad their roster is on offense. Campbell might turn out to be a disaster, but I'm not using this season to determine that.

 

20 hours ago, Hongbit said:

Campbell has been an absolute nightmare when it comes to clock management.   He looks completely lost when it comes to in game strategy. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Where did anybody criticize his use of TOs generally speaking? 

The concern expressed here is that he and his coaches and players have made too many critical mistakes late in games.  That doesnt necessarily mean that he generally makes mistakes with TOs, and nobody to my recollection claimed that was the case.

Just a handful of posts complaining about his clock management. The double timeout thing was bad but overall his clock management has been good. 

[gehringer_2]

I am willing to stipulate that the 6 holding calls hurt the Lions a lot more than any clock issues. When a team gets a lot of penalties, I think most fall under two causes: 1) they are physically over matched 2) the team has poor execution discipline and obviously both can be true. Now given that the lions have a lot of bad players, we can chalk up a hold on Kraemer  to number one, but not so much a hold on Decker.

[sagnam]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

Sorry I can't get worked up over a football coach wearing a helmet to a meaningless offseason press conference where I have to mention it constantly every game as if it is relevant.

If my typical posts bother you, you're free to ignore them and not respond.

You could try the same.  But you specifically decided to respond.  And to respond in a completely non-constructive manner.  Wearing a helmet is funny when it’s a competent coach.  Wearing a helmet is a warning sign otherwise.

[sagnam]

Don’t forget Campbell called TOs at the end of OT when the Steelers started the final drive.  Those TOs certainly saved time.  Unfortunately it was time saved for the Steelers.  The Lions were lucky to get a fumble to end that game with a tie.

[slothfacekilla]

https://www.detroitlions.com/news/four-downs-offense-struggles-in-loss-to-eagles-goff-swift-campbell

"I freaking hate what I did before halftime," Campbell said after the game. "I hate it. I don't hate going for it, but I should have used a timeout going into the 3rd and 1. That didn't help, either. Look, I got outcoached, man. I got outcoached. I didn't help these guys."

[Hongbit]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

 

 

 

 

Just a handful of posts complaining about his clock management. The double timeout thing was bad but overall his clock management has been good. 

His clock management has been atrocious.   

[gehringer_2]

11 minutes ago, sagnam said:

Don’t forget Campbell called TOs at the end of OT when the Steelers started the final drive.  Those TOs certainly saved time.  Unfortunately it was time saved for the Steelers.  The Lions were lucky to get a fumble to end that game with a tie.

I laughed about that at the time also, but again, to be fair, letting the clock run is what you do if you have resigned yourself to playing for the tie. If you still wanted to give yourself another chance to win? As hopeless as the D and O both looked by that time, do you want your coach to be the one signalling that he has giving up?

[Motown Bombers]

21 minutes ago, sagnam said:

You could try the same.  But you specifically decided to respond.  And to respond in a completely non-constructive manner.  Wearing a helmet is funny when it’s a competent coach.  Wearing a helmet is a warning sign otherwise.

I mean, I didn't quote you or mention you but you knew the post was directed at you because you are the only one who brings it up every single game so you really shouldn't be talking about "typical posts" when you have more than your fair share. 

[Motown Bombers]

13 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

His clock management has been atrocious.   

No it hasn't. 

[sagnam]

28 minutes ago, slothfacekilla said:

https://www.detroitlions.com/news/four-downs-offense-struggles-in-loss-to-eagles-goff-swift-campbell

"I freaking hate what I did before halftime," Campbell said after the game. "I hate it. I don't hate going for it, but I should have used a timeout going into the 3rd and 1. That didn't help, either. Look, I got outcoached, man. I got outcoached. I didn't help these guys."

This is a very good sign.  Let’s hope he can grow.