1984Echoes Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 2 minutes ago, Toddwert said: ... he's not good at it And he is not magically going to get better at it at any point in the next 5 years. So my point stands. He's as far as he's going to get. He's as ready as he will ever be. He was DRAFTED KNOWING he had fielding limitations. He was drafted for his BAT, not his fielding. So he has time until Spring Training next year to get as ready as he will ever be. Not today. 2025. The Tigers are going to have to live with his liabilities if they believe his bat is ready. They're going to have to try him out in MLB to see what they can get out of him. Exactly what I've already stated. Best case scenario? Keith's shoulder is doable at 3B by next year. He was better at 3B than Jung. And I believe Jung was better than Keith at 2B. How about next Spring Training... the team figures it out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 anyways back to reality ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 38 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Best case scenario? Keith's shoulder is doable at 3B by next year. He was better at 3B than Jung. And I believe Jung was better than Keith at 2B. Even if in some world this is a logical outcome, do you really think the org will walk back the moves they made to put them where they are? Let me just say I’ll be surprised if it came to pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted July 3 Share Posted July 3 We should have drafted the player after Jace Jung as many of us were hoping for which was Zack Neto. I just finished watching him play four games straight at Angel Stadium and he can really play shortstop exceptionally and hit a bit. Uncle Al always chose hit over field and the result is, well, less than optimal. And watching Colt Keith three games showed me he can not play second base. He botched a simple tailor made double play but did get the guy at first so no error. He just isn’t smooth , fluid or instinctual like a middle infielder should be and his arm will never play at third base. I’m just a fan watching for 55 years but for me it’s just another waste of time. Uncle Al got lucky 🍀 sometimes but overall he had no business assembling a team. i haven’t seen Jace Jung play but a little in spring training but the printed word says he is subpar at third and just looking at the man I doubt he has any range for second base. in my book we don’t have a shortstop or third baseman in our entire system besides Javy Baez which means we need both and Scot Harris needs to make that a priority urgently or this ship will continue to list sideways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveMaroth Posted July 3 Author Share Posted July 3 11 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said: We should have drafted the player after Jace Jung as many of us were hoping for which was Zack Neto. I just finished watching him play four games straight at Angel Stadium and he can really play shortstop exceptionally and hit a bit. Uncle Al always chose hit over field and the result is, well, less than optimal. And watching Colt Keith three games showed me he can not play second base. He botched a simple tailor made double play but did get the guy at first so no error. He just isn’t smooth , fluid or instinctual like a middle infielder should be and his arm will never play at third base. I’m just a fan watching for 55 years but for me it’s just another waste of time. Uncle Al got lucky 🍀 sometimes but overall he had no business assembling a team. i haven’t seen Jace Jung play but a little in spring training but the printed word says he is subpar at third and just looking at the man I doubt he has any range for second base. in my book we don’t have a shortstop or third baseman in our entire system besides Javy Baez which means we need both and Scot Harris needs to make that a priority urgently or this ship will continue to list sideways. I mean Jung did win a GG in the minors at 2nd so he probably would be a good 2nd baseman defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microline133 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 22 minutes ago, LongLiveMaroth said: I mean Jung did win a GG in the minors at 2nd so he probably would be a good 2nd baseman defensively. Nope. He's a below average defender at both second and third. Same as Keith. Both have to hit a bunch or they are of little big league value. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: ... do you really think the org will walk back the moves they made to put them where they are? Let me just say ... Is Keith's shoulder permanent? Will he never regain 100% full strength back? Did he have enough arm for 3B prior to the shoulder injury? I mean... I don't know the answers to those questions... But I think positive answers to those would mean that the team would NOT preclude making the swap back... And a negative answer would mean he's not going back to the left side so 2B or 1B... But I don't know these answers. You? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 45 minutes ago, LongLiveMaroth said: I mean Jung did win a GG in the minors at 2nd so he probably would be a good 2nd baseman defensively. Derek Jeter and his 5 GGs enter the conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 If a team has to play Keith at 1st, they have a lot of problems. First is the position for hitters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 3 hours ago, microline133 said: Nope. He's a below average defender at both second and third. Same as Keith. Both have to hit a bunch or they are of little big league value. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 (edited) 3 hours ago, tiger2022 said: If a team has to play Keith at 1st, they have a lot of problems. First is the position for hitters. I think Keith will hit. Maybe not the prototypical First sacker but 15-20 homers, 30-40 doubles , .340 on base , great speed for a first baseman and solid defense. That's a very valuable player. We can't be greedy at this point. I say read the tea leaves and move him ASAP. That's on position filled and more important we stop wasting time at second base. My opinion. Also I "think" playing second is a real burden for him. Move him to position he plays well should allow him to relax and the hitting will follow. Edited July 4 by SoCalTiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 2 hours ago, SoCalTiger said: I think Keith will hit. Maybe not the prototypical First sacker but 15-20 homers, 30-40 doubles , .340 on base , great speed for a first baseman and solid defense. That's a very valuable player. We can't be greedy at this point. I say read the tea leaves and move him ASAP. That's on position filled and more important we stop wasting time at second base. My opinion. Also I "think" playing second is a real burden for him. Move him to position he plays well should allow him to relax and the hitting will follow. He'll have to raise his walk rate if he is going to get on base at a .340 clip. He has just 15 walks in 250 PA. He has shown very little power either, but I think that will come later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 (edited) If you are building a house and have a pile of old broken 2x4s and shattered bricks laying around, you can go out and get better building material to finish the house. If the long term plan is putting a below average hitting 2nd baseman at 1st base, the front office should be fired ASAP. Keith would be the worst first baseman in the league. Edited July 4 by tiger2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 3 hours ago, tiger2022 said: If you are building a house and have a pile of old broken 2x4s and shattered bricks laying around, you can go out and get better building material to finish the house. If the long term plan is putting a below average hitting 2nd baseman at 1st base, the front office should be fired ASAP. Keith would be the worst first baseman in the league. SSS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 6 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said: SSS You can type whatever, but why would anyone want a bad singles hitter with minimal power and way below average defensive skills playing 1st. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 1 minute ago, tiger2022 said: You can type whatever, but why would anyone want a bad singles hitter with minimal power and way below average defensive skills playing 1st. It's way to early to write off his bat and where he seems shy at second he has shown enough to be a very good first baseman and he has the size to play there. As Tiger337 stated he does need to walk more and of course provide better slugging which I think, and the organization surely does, the power and hit tool will eventually show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 What has he shown that makes him a very good first baseman? I don't see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveMaroth Posted July 4 Author Share Posted July 4 Anyway back on the actual topic of this thread which shockingly isn't whether or not Keith should be moved to 1st. One trade chip that seems to have been on the back burner and honestly I hadn't thought about much is Carson Kelly. He has a wRC+ of 108 on the year and has been worth 1.2 WAR (according to FG). Looking at the teams who may want to upgrade at catcher you have Texas, San Diego, Arizona, Seattle, Minnesota, and NYM in the bottom half of the league regarding WAR from the catcher position. Not going to get a premium prospect for him but you may be able to pick up a Hao-Yu Lee type. Also let's not forget this was a Harris signing and honestly a good one. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 hao-yu lee is our second baseman of the future. keith can play left field or something. jung can play first? if he makes it. tork will play for another team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 15 hours ago, LongLiveMaroth said: Anyway back on the actual topic of this thread which shockingly isn't whether or not Keith should be moved to 1st. One trade chip that seems to have been on the back burner and honestly I hadn't thought about much is Carson Kelly. He has a wRC+ of 108 on the year and has been worth 1.2 WAR (according to FG). Looking at the teams who may want to upgrade at catcher you have Texas, San Diego, Arizona, Seattle, Minnesota, and NYM in the bottom half of the league regarding WAR from the catcher position. Not going to get a premium prospect for him but you may be able to pick up a Hao-Yu Lee type. Also let's not forget this was a Harris signing and honestly a good one. Agreed. Yet, this is where this FO has to have the ability to negotiate a deal for someone they like. You can have CKelly in the deal, but add a RP, a prospect or two and get a player you do like. Same goes with Flaherty. ID a player from the organization who is interested in our player (ex a young player who is blocked or one has a contract they may wish to move to give another a chance, etc.). Add to the player they are interested in 1-2 of our prospects (no NOT top 5) and create a package deal. Can this FO do this??? Also, as said before, this 'control the zone' approach, though good to take a course or two and emphasize it - simply is NOT for every player. We still lead the league in taking first pitch middle-middle strikes. IMHO, if we use this for every player we try to get (draft, trade, FA, etc.) we are limiting our chances at success. There are many good players now and throughout history who did/do not have REAL strong BB to K rates. I am not saying go after 'wild swingers' per say - nor to not consider this, just do not limit yourself. We are not a strong offensive club. Draft and development is key. However, this FO has to be able to make some deals (not Dombrowski driving it either, IMHO, he did so with the two Philly trades). There are some FA positional players available this off season - with said they have to realize also this is not a strong FA destiny for positional players just the same. Go Tigs ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 (edited) 46 minutes ago, alex said: this 'control the zone' approach, though good to take a course or two and emphasize it - simply is NOT for every player It’s also yesterday’s news. With every pitcher trying to steal 1st pitch strikes, the reality has changed and you have to adapt. You can’t give away freebies and put yourself in a hole 0-1. It’s always great not to swing at bad pitches, but you have to make that consistent with being aggressive on strikes and somewhere that has broken down with this team. … except for Riley. They could all take a lesson there. Edited July 5 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 Blockbuster deal! Wingenter for CJ Weins. Weins is a right handed reliever at A ball. 23 years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 Wingeter was like Fetch—the Tigers kept trying to make it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 4 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: Blockbuster deal! Wingenter for CJ Weins. Weins is a right handed reliever at A ball. 23 years old. Scott Harris continues to be a high roller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerNation Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 (edited) On 7/5/2024 at 8:43 AM, gehringer_2 said: It’s also yesterday’s news. With every pitcher trying to steal 1st pitch strikes, the reality has changed and you have to adapt. You can’t give away freebies and put yourself in a hole 0-1. It’s always great not to swing at bad pitches, but you have to make that consistent with being aggressive on strikes and somewhere that has broken down with this team. … except for Riley. They could all take a lesson there. Only JHM, Parker, and Canha have lower zone swing% than Riley on the Tigers. He falls behind in the count a lot, there is a reason he has such a high K rate despite having one of the lowest chase rates in the league. He's just good enough to make the approach work. Edited July 7 by TigerNation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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