TigerNation Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 46 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: He played in almost 100 games. And if he would have hit just a tiny bit more, he would have been here longer. It's not just Harris that acquires players and give then extra chances, it's most GMs. I just don't trust Harris' ability when it comes to finding talent. Imagine if we would've given up on Keith after 80 games. You need a sufficient sample size to evaluate performance. When your team sucks you can give players a little longer to see how they adjust/grow. Maton is simply not a example that supports your point. Almost 100 games is objectively not a lot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said: Dude... HOW in the world did you forget Riley Greene! 😉 I didn’t. He’s established Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeytargets39 Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 10 minutes ago, TigerNation said: Imagine if we would've given up on Keith after 80 games. You need a sufficient sample size to evaluate performance. When your team sucks you can give players a little longer to see how they adjust/grow. Maton is simply not a example that supports your point. Almost 100 games is objectively not a lot. Keith was our top prospect who mashed his way through the minors, Maton was a 26 year old who didn’t OPS above .800 in the minors. One will get more of a chance than the other. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 3 hours ago, HeyAbbott said: I think Harris has revealed more of his thinking by continuing to draft prep players in 2024. It looks to me his target date is '27 or '28. If that is what he really thinks, then it is time to trade Skubal. If I got the right package, I would pull the trigger immediately. and eveything he says is about building a foundation. Nothing from what he's said or did makes me think they are making a push in the next few years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 3 hours ago, TigerNation said: Imagine if we would've given up on Keith after 80 games. You need a sufficient sample size to evaluate performance. When your team sucks you can give players a little longer to see how they adjust/grow. Maton is simply not a example that supports your point. Almost 100 games is objectively not a lot. It was more than enough to see he wasn't capable. I'm not even sure why he was playing in MLB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAbbott Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 1 hour ago, Toddwert said: and eveything he says is about building a foundation. Nothing from what he's said or did makes me think they are making a push in the next few years I agree. He stifled a laugh when he was at his introductory presser. In that moment, he conveyed information about what he thinks. Everyone is tradeable for the right price. If I received what I received for Skubal was the right place. I'd pull the trigger without hesitation. I could just as easily keep Skubal until he becomes a free agent I could also extend him for the right price. That does not change my view that Harris does not feel a sense of urgency to win now or in 2025. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAbbott Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 Just now, HeyAbbott said: I agree. He stifled a laugh when he was at his introductory presser. In that moment, he conveyed information about what he thinks. Everyone is tradeable for the right price. If I received what I received for Skubal was the right place. I'd pull the trigger without hesitation. I could just as easily keep Skubal until he becomes a free agent I could also extend him for the right price. That does not change my view that Harris does not feel a sense of urgency to win now or in 2025. And all of this does not change my desire to win as many games as possible in 2024 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 5 hours ago, HeyAbbott said: I think Harris has revealed more of his thinking by continuing to draft prep players in 2024. It looks to me his target date is '27 or '28. If that is what he really thinks, then it is time to trade Skubal. If I got the right package, I would pull the trigger immediately. I’m not sure I agree with the target date being that far down the line. I think they were simply taking best player available. If you are in fact correct about the timeline theory, that’s an awful decision. They can improve the farm system via draft while at the same time improving big league roster. We can allow multitasking. The Tigers obviously have some roster spots that could use improvement, and it might not take too much to improve those spots. And despite those issues, they’re still around .500 on the season. As for Skubal, it’s pretty easy, really. It’s going to require a boatload of talent, and if it’s not there, don’t trade him. Build up the team next season, improve upon this season. The salary situation isn’t onerous at all except for Baez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveMaroth Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 16 hours ago, HeyAbbott said: I think Harris has revealed more of his thinking by continuing to draft prep players in 2024. It looks to me his target date is '27 or '28. I keep seeing things like this and I wanted to add some color. Harris most likely acts like a CEO of a company. While he has the final say on things he is not down in the everyday discussion of we should draft x vs y. Those discussions are had by Mark Connor who came over from San Diego. San Diego was known for their proclivity of selecting prep talent in the draft. Sure Harris could have demanded Connor focus on the most ML ready talent but he hired him for his knowledge and expertise so if Connor tells him hey here is where we have the prep players and we believe it's above the non-prep players should he select the non-prep because they will get here faster? The draft is about talent not timeline. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveMaroth Posted July 20 Author Share Posted July 20 (edited) Jack Flaherty 2024 3.13 ERA 32.1% K 0.98 WHIP Jordan Montgomery 2023 (before trade) 3.42 ERA 23.9% K 1.25 WHIP I was looking at deals from last year and I think Jordan Montgomery is probably the closest equivalent to Flaherty that we can compare against. He was on the last year of his deal and has comparable (not as good as Jack) stats. So looking at what STL got for him they got 2 borderline/upper bounds top 100 prospects and a lottery ticket. I would say that is what we should expect back. Maybe it's one Top 50-60 instead of 2 top 100 but that is what we should expect when we trade him. Edited July 20 by LongLiveMaroth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4hzglory Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 1 hour ago, LongLiveMaroth said: Jack Flaherty 2024 3.13 ERA 32.1% K 0.98 WHIP Jordan Montgomery 2023 (before trade) 3.42 ERA 23.9% K 1.25 WHIP I was looking at deals from last year and I think Jordan Montgomery is probably the closest equivalent to Flaherty that we can compare against. He was on the last year of his deal and has comparable (not as good as Jack) stats. So looking at what STL got for him they got 2 borderline/upper bounds top 100 prospects and a lottery ticket. I would say that is what we should expect back. Maybe it's one Top 50-60 instead of 2 top 100 but that is what we should expect when we trade him. I would say that’s the minimum if you’re just comparing the 2. Flaherty’s numbers you posted are significantly better than Montgomery’s. Now will a team be as aggressive after him as the Rangers were? That’s another question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Just now, 4hzglory said: I would say that’s the minimum if you’re just comparing the 2. Flaherty’s numbers you posted are significantly better than Montgomery’s. Now will a team be as aggressive after him as the Rangers were? That’s another question. The Dodgers and Orioles are said to both be feeling very, very aggressive this deadline. I think one of them is going to land Flaherty. And the other is going to hunt Skubal. I don't know if either will land Skubal (meaning a good enough package to convince Harris he should say "yes")... But I think that's how it's going to go down. Crochet is the next best... but I think there will be serious questions (and diminished, but not zero, trade interest) about his non-history of starting (and therefore fears he will not be effective the second half...).. Flaherty will be most in demand (lesser prospect cost) for the team not as willing to trade prospects and Skubal will be most in demand for the team that wants a 2.5 Post Seasons guy... IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 On 7/19/2024 at 12:42 PM, SoCalTiger said: True but don't discount the $$..Skubal is making peanuts.... Although Skubal is buying himself a pretty good arb payday for next year. probably close to a record, maybe even something pushing 20 bills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 23 hours ago, Sports_Freak said: And then Wili Castro goes and becomes an All-Star. Squirrel finds nut. Clock is right twice a day...😆 TBF, some of us knew Willi was potentially pretty good, and even thought we would/should hang onto him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 19 hours ago, Sports_Freak said: It was more than enough to see he wasn't capable. I'm not even sure why he was playing in MLB. Tigers apparently saw something in Maton they thought they could fix and they did everything they could to try to fix it and once they saw it wasn't going to work the way they wanted to they let him go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 18 hours ago, casimir said: I’m not sure I agree with the target date being that far down the line. I don't think Harris see a target date of 27-28, either. I think he saw/he sees this team as a possible playoff contender this year if everything breaks the right way and appropriate development occurs, but it's not at the stage of development at which we can start emptying out the top of our system to fill holes. That['s why I don't think we will be buying at all this season, even if we go 11-0 and stand at 58-50 on deadline day. I think we all saw this year that the system had been gutted even more than we thought it was and that it was going to take more time to put right than we'd hoped, but I would imagine that Harris sees 2025 as a step-forward year, one which might lead to a halfway decent free agent this offseason we can bring aboard for more than two years. There are a few available. But I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't bring one abord, either. But this should be the last offseason for one-year stopgaps, or else something has gone horribly wrong. I would bet that Harris now sees 2026 as the year we can start contending for a title, again, assume we don't see multiple things going upside-down for us during that season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 3 minutes ago, chasfh said: Tigers apparently saw something in Maton they thought they could fix and they did everything they could to try to fix it and once they saw it wasn't going to work the way they wanted to they let him go But that's not my point. Are we supposed to trust Harris' evaluations of prospects that are offered to us for Flaherty? Or even worse, Skubal? We've been down this road with many of the high quality players Avila basically gave away. Who left from the JV trade, Jake Rogers? Meanwhile, Verlander threw a no-hitter and won a Cy Young award? Yeah, gunshy trading stars for prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 2 minutes ago, chasfh said: I don't think Harris see a target date of 27-28, either. I think he saw/he sees this team as a possible playoff contender this year if everything breaks the right way and appropriate development occurs, but it's not at the stage of development at which we can start emptying out the top of our system to fill holes. That['s why I don't think we will be buying at all this season, even if we go 11-0 and stand at 58-50 on deadline day. I think we all saw this year that the system had been gutted even more than we thought it was and that it was going to take more time to put right than we'd hoped, but I would imagine that Harris sees 2025 as a step-forward year, one which might lead to a halfway decent free agent this offseason we can bring aboard for more than two years. There are a few available. But I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't bring one abord, either. But this should be the last offseason for one-year stopgaps, or else something has gone horribly wrong. I would bet that Harris now sees 2026 as the year we can start contending for a title, again, assume we don't see multiple things going upside-down for us during that season. I don't agree. The Tigers won't be buyers because quality players that could help us this season would add too much to the payroll. Look no further than last off-season to see the players we signed. Or didn't sign... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 5 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said: But that's not my point. Are we supposed to trust Harris' evaluations of prospects that are offered to us for Flaherty? Or even worse, Skubal? We've been down this road with many of the high quality players Avila basically gave away. Who left from the JV trade, Jake Rogers? Meanwhile, Verlander threw a no-hitter and won a Cy Young award? Yeah, gunshy trading stars for prospects. Yes, of course we're supposed to trust Harris, because what's our alternative? Seems like the only real alternative is to quit following the Tigers. You're talking as though Harris has already failed us on multiple occasions as Avila did. In fact, you are strongly implying that Harris is Avila. If you're not willing to give Harris even one deadline chance, then how can you ever be satisfied with anything? I mean, I get the self-flagellating attraction of fatalism, but doesn't there have to be a limit to it at some point? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 17 minutes ago, chasfh said: Tigers apparently saw something in Maton they thought they could fix and they did everything they could to try to fix it and once they saw it wasn't going to work the way they wanted to they let him go Yeah one of the rare things I've been right about, admittedly I didn't expect him to be an All Star even though I did feel he had that potential with the bat atleast. I was always worried about his defense but felt his potential upside with the bat as he showed in 2020 was worth hanging onto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 Just now, chasfh said: Yes, of course we're supposed to trust Harris, because what's our alternative? There's always torches and pitchforks.... (the pitchforks came irresistibly to mind as I've been watching my neighbor across the street dumping and spreading about 50 yds of mulch on what used to be his front lawn.....) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: There's always torches and pitchforks.... (the pitchforks came irresistibly to mind as I've been watching my neighbor across the street dumping and spreading about 50 yds of mulch on what used to be his front lawn.....) I had a neighbor who actually set his front yard on fire. Actual flames. He said his dad taught him the trick to make a healthy lawn. The next year or so, he had the greenest and thickest lawn on the block. Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 I mean Harris has already turned Gregory Soto into Matt Vierling who while not being a star has shown the ability to be a league average bat who can play adequate enough defense and be an everyday player. Also turned half a season of Lorenzen into Hao-Yu Lee who has been one of our more exciting prospects. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 15 minutes ago, chasfh said: .... If you're not willing to give Harris even one deadline chance, then how can you ever be satisfied with anything? I mean, I get the self-flagellating attraction of fatalism, but doesn't there have to be a limit to it at some point? POINT!!! All the self-flagellation is getting boring. Exceedingly boring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 8 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: I mean Harris has already turned Gregory Soto into Matt Vierling who while not being a star has shown the ability to be a league average bat who can play adequate enough defense and be an everyday player. Also turned half a season of Lorenzen into Hao-Yu Lee who has been one of our more exciting prospects. Plus 1. Plus 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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