LongLiveMaroth Posted June 21 Author Share Posted June 21 29 minutes ago, Edman85 said: Already did quote it. A quick mention of extending him 2-3 years, to me, implies what I took it as. Again, not sure why I am bothering getting dragged into a bad faith argument. Glutton for punishment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveMaroth Posted June 21 Author Share Posted June 21 10 minutes ago, Hongbit said: Riley Greene is only 23. Colt Keith is only 22 as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 1 hour ago, HeyAbbott said: It is time for a little reality here. One needs to look around in the entire organization and ask who do you see contributing to a playoff team in 2027 or 2028. Everyone else is yesterday's news and needs to be traded, if reasonable value can be found. The only player who might be here when the Tigers are playoff competitive again is Winceel Perez. Everyone else is probably dead man walking Other than the few free agents, Rogers is under control for three more years. Everyone else is 4+ years. I can see Greene, Carpenter, Keith, Vierling, Perez, Ibanez contributing. Some as bench players. Maybe Tork, Meadows and Jung can hit ML pitching by then. Plenty of room to add a few solid bats to the mix. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 1 hour ago, Edman85 said: Already did quote it. A quick mention of extending him 2-3 years, to me, implies what I took it as. Again, not sure why I am bothering getting dragged into a bad faith argument. You are providing the bad faith argument. It's even in what you quoted. "I would prefer" does NOT equal "claims he can just be rubber stamp signed to a 2-3 year extension". You created a strawman. In bad faith. And just because I didn't STATE an if/then statement, does not mean that it doesn't exist. The very statement "I would prefer", and ALSO "Skubal-Flaherty-Olson, for now" does the exact same thing. IF the team can sign Flaherty to an extension THEN the "for now" and "I would prefer" have more staying power. I put no guarantees in there. NONE whatsoever. Until then, your "rubber stamp" is both an absolute strawman and in BAD FAITH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 1 hour ago, Toddwert said: waitin to see that he didnt say rubber stamp...... I didn't. Strawman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 8 hours ago, Tenacious D said: How was Keith not ripe? He had a monster full season in Toledo in 2023. He was so good that the front office was criticized for not promoting him. The truth is is that the jump from the minors to MLB is massive for some players and many will not make that transition. Or they will take their lumps for an extended period. I don’t know how it is that other organizations are able to promote their hitters and they have successful rookie seasons. That seems to avoid us (and I don’t think it is because we rushed anyone, including Tork). Because he can’t play second base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveMaroth Posted June 21 Author Share Posted June 21 2 hours ago, SoCalTiger said: Because he can’t play second base. He 22 learning a new position in the majors. Maybe we give him a season before we write him off 🙄. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 1 hour ago, LongLiveMaroth said: He 22 learning a new position in the majors. Maybe we give him a season before we write him off 🙄. Your eyes are way better than mine so I will defer to your better judgment but I see a good hitter there but a below average second sacker and I just defer to defense as a prerequisite to playing a position. I love clean baseball that compliments the pitchers and hate giving away outs especially not turning double plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, SoCalTiger said: Your eyes are way better than mine so I will defer to your better judgment but I see a good hitter there but a below average second sacker and I just defer to defense as a prerequisite to playing a position. I love clean baseball that compliments the pitchers and hate giving away outs especially not turning double plays. Adrian Beltre made 52 errors in his 1st two full seasons. If a guy has decent hands, decent reaction time and can throw accurately he's got a chance to become decent. If Keith was making bad throws or having balls clank off his glove with regularity I'd be more concerned, but unless they swap him back to third with Jace they should just let him work at 2b for a while. You don't want to throw in the towel and put anyone that young at 1st that still has any potential to hold some other spot since their bat will be a lot more valuable there. Edited June 22 by gehringer_2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 6 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: Adrian Beltre made 52 errors in his 1st two full seasons. If a guy has decent hands, decent reaction time and can throw accurately he's got a chance to become decent. If Keith was making bad throws or having balls clank off his glove with regularity I'd be more concerned, but unless they swap him back to third with Jace they should just let him work at 2b for a while. You don't want to throw in the towel and put anyone that young at 1st that still has any potential to hold some other spot since their bat will be a lot more valuable there. More good points. Hope it works out at second. We certainly need some good breaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 12 hours ago, SoCalTiger said: Your eyes are way better than mine so I will defer to your better judgment but I see a good hitter there but a below average second sacker and I just defer to defense as a prerequisite to playing a position. I love clean baseball that compliments the pitchers and hate giving away outs especially not turning double plays. The thing about Keith is not that he’s a failure because he can’t play second base—which I know you’re not saying here—but that we are in the beginning of an actual rebuild and we don’t have a complete team around him. He’s playing at second base because we already have long-term guys we are trying to figure out at first base (Tork) and third base (Jung, Vierling). Plus, he wasn’t particularly good at third, anyway. We wanted to see whether he could hack second, which was a long shot going in, and we know for sure now he won’t. I think if we were to start playing Keith at first, that would tell us a lot about Tork’s future with the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: Adrian Beltre made 52 errors in his 1st two full seasons. If a guy has decent hands, decent reaction time and can throw accurately he's got a chance to become decent. If Keith was making bad throws or having balls clank off his glove with regularity I'd be more concerned, but unless they swap him back to third with Jace they should just let him work at 2b for a while. You don't want to throw in the towel and put anyone that young at 1st that still has any potential to hold some other spot since their bat will be a lot more valuable there. Does Keith have a severe aversion to people touching his head? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 21 minutes ago, chasfh said: The thing about Keith is not that he’s a failure because he can’t play second base—which I know you’re not saying here—but that we are in the beginning of an actual rebuild and we don’t have a complete team around him. He’s playing at second base because we already have long-term guys we are trying to figure out at first base (Tork) and third base (Jung, Vierling). Plus, he wasn’t particularly good at third, anyway. We wanted to see whether he could hack second, which was a long shot going in, and we know for sure now he won’t. I think if we were to start playing Keith at first, that would tell us a lot about Tork’s future with the team. Do you really think Vierling is a long term 3B consideration? I guess maybe "long term" is the key to it. Or maybe another way to put it is he's basically an everyday player that can handle moving around defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 (edited) 9 minutes ago, casimir said: Do you really think Vierling is a long term 3B consideration? I guess maybe "long term" is the key to it. Or maybe another way to put it is he's basically an everyday player that can handle moving around defensively. After last season I wanted to see more of Vierling at 3rd to see how it went. It's been a mixed bag. He can make a lot of the plays and his arm is good, but over time we've seen what he can't do get a little exposed. Maybe with enough reps there he'd improve, but that's not likely to happen now. Bottom line - he may have been as good or better than anyone we played there last season but watching Gio you see that the position can be played better. Edited June 22 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 11 minutes ago, casimir said: Do you really think Vierling is a long term 3B consideration? I guess maybe "long term" is the key to it. Or maybe another way to put it is he's basically an everyday player that can handle moving around defensively. I do know they had been trying Vierling over at third, but he's been more in center lately, probably because Urshela is now fully back. But you're right, he's a minus defender at third this year so he's probably off the list. He's probably not an everyday CF, either, although he has improved this season over previous seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 (edited) 4 minutes ago, chasfh said: I do know they had been trying Vierling over at third, but he's been more in center lately, probably because Urshela is now fully back. But you're right, he's a minus defender at third this year so he's probably off the list. He's probably not an everyday CF, either, although he has improved this season over previous seasons. I think it goes to prove conventional wisdom that while a guy with strong basic catch and throw skills may be able to be adequate no matter where you play him, it's takes concentration at one position type to make a plus fielder. Edited June 22 by gehringer_2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveMaroth Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 (edited) Here is a proposed trade from the Athletic ; I'll be honest I would be pretty disappointed with this return. Parada isn't even ranked on Fangraphs and is 9th on pipeline. The proposed move: Mets trade C Kevin Parada to Detroit Tigers for RHP Jack Flaherty. The Mets could use another proven veteran starter if they want to make the playoffs, and acquiring Flaherty could improve their chances dramatically. Flaherty is having an impressive comeback season as he’s logged a 2.92 ERA over 14 starts with 108 strikeouts and just 13 walks in 83 1/3 innings. Entering Sunday, he was third in the majors in strikeouts per nine innings (11.7) and fourth in walks per nine (1.4). Opposing batters are hitting .234 against his four-seamer, .207 against his slider, .192 against his knuckle curve and .250 against his changeup. The price is going to be steep, but the Mets could part with Parada, a 2022 first-round pick, because he’s blocked behind Francisco Alvarez, who is their long-term catcher. The Tigers desperately need to improve their position player pool with power hitters. Parada, 22, is hitting just .209 but has nine doubles, seven home runs and 29 RBIs this season at Double-A Binghamton. Last year he hit .248 with 14 home runs, 54 RBIs and a .752 OPS across three minor-league levels. Most evaluators see him as a .260-type hitter with 20 home runs when fully developed. Flaherty will be eligible for free agency again this offseason. Edited June 24 by LongLiveMaroth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 56 minutes ago, LongLiveMaroth said: Here is a proposed trade from the Athletic ; I'll be honest I would be pretty disappointed with this return. Parada isn't even ranked on Fangraphs and is 9th on pipeline. The proposed move: Mets trade C Kevin Parada to Detroit Tigers for RHP Jack Flaherty. The Mets could use another proven veteran starter if they want to make the playoffs, and acquiring Flaherty could improve their chances dramatically. Flaherty is having an impressive comeback season as he’s logged a 2.92 ERA over 14 starts with 108 strikeouts and just 13 walks in 83 1/3 innings. Entering Sunday, he was third in the majors in strikeouts per nine innings (11.7) and fourth in walks per nine (1.4). Opposing batters are hitting .234 against his four-seamer, .207 against his slider, .192 against his knuckle curve and .250 against his changeup. The price is going to be steep, but the Mets could part with Parada, a 2022 first-round pick, because he’s blocked behind Francisco Alvarez, who is their long-term catcher. The Tigers desperately need to improve their position player pool with power hitters. Parada, 22, is hitting just .209 but has nine doubles, seven home runs and 29 RBIs this season at Double-A Binghamton. Last year he hit .248 with 14 home runs, 54 RBIs and a .752 OPS across three minor-league levels. Most evaluators see him as a .260-type hitter with 20 home runs when fully developed. Flaherty will be eligible for free agency again this offseason. All interesting and no doubt speculative - and yet... KPrada was thought of quite highly during 2023. On pipeline he was #3 NYM listed and #36 in the Top 100. Looks like he has some power and hit ability. However not much speed (he is a Catcher) and 'so-so' defense. Not good for Comerica Park. I think if the Tigs trade Flaherty (I think they will seriously look at this) IMHO, much depends on: 1) he continues to P well and 2) just important - remains healthy, I feel they should create a package, add 1-2 prospects (no not of their Top 5) and/or another player - and shoot for a 'good' young player(s) of position(s) of need that is/are also athletic. I have said this many times. The FO has to have the ability to negotiate deals. SHarris and JGreenberg, etc. they need to show this knack. It is not something that all GMs have. If we continue to get rentals (not a bad idea especially w SP), this ability can really help us. SHarris got a good return it seems for Lorenzen. Yet, he has now made a couple deals with DD from Philly. I would like to see this expanded because something tells me DD may of been the 'driver' both times. He needs to use his imagination. I felt JD Davis could of helped us. He was out there last week. Many say just let the kids play - we are doing that regardless. Davis is not that old, has legit power, but only so-so defense. I like Gio on defense - but he has very little power esp at Comerica. I felt that if Tork was staying at AAA for awhile, then Davis could have been a fit. Oddly (maybe not) the NYY got Davis yesterday. No doubt the injuries to Stanton and Rizzo played a role here - but two things I am curious to see 1) how he does in the pinstripes and if he is not good enough for us (ex does not move the needle) then how is it NY, best league record, went out and got him? Some imagination, on a potential 'crazy' deal. How about Flaherty and Tork and a prospect to NY for OF JDominguez and SS/Inf OPeraza? We get two highly regarded young athletic players for positions of need. We can sign a 1B this off season. The Yanks get a SP for the run and a young 1B for their future and a decent (NOT Top 5 prospect as well and/or a bullpen arm). NY has a young shortstop in Volpe and OF prospects are decent in their system and no doubt they are a favorite to resign Soto. Verdugo likes it there as well - so he may re-sign. They can save $ with a young 1B and use towards their FAs. I feel Tork should come around (possibly here or another team). I do not buy he has no value in trade. Some may say 'no way they trade Dominguez' - yet, Tork was that last year. All just imagination, color me crazy, that may even make a little sense ; ) Go Tigs! Edited June 24 by alex 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 1 hour ago, LongLiveMaroth said: Here is a proposed trade from the Athletic ; I'll be honest I would be pretty disappointed with this return. Parada isn't even ranked on Fangraphs and is 9th on pipeline. The proposed move: Mets trade C Kevin Parada to Detroit Tigers for RHP Jack Flaherty. The Mets could use another proven veteran starter if they want to make the playoffs, and acquiring Flaherty could improve their chances dramatically. Flaherty is having an impressive comeback season as he’s logged a 2.92 ERA over 14 starts with 108 strikeouts and just 13 walks in 83 1/3 innings. Entering Sunday, he was third in the majors in strikeouts per nine innings (11.7) and fourth in walks per nine (1.4). Opposing batters are hitting .234 against his four-seamer, .207 against his slider, .192 against his knuckle curve and .250 against his changeup. The price is going to be steep, but the Mets could part with Parada, a 2022 first-round pick, because he’s blocked behind Francisco Alvarez, who is their long-term catcher. The Tigers desperately need to improve their position player pool with power hitters. Parada, 22, is hitting just .209 but has nine doubles, seven home runs and 29 RBIs this season at Double-A Binghamton. Last year he hit .248 with 14 home runs, 54 RBIs and a .752 OPS across three minor-league levels. Most evaluators see him as a .260-type hitter with 20 home runs when fully developed. Flaherty will be eligible for free agency again this offseason. The Pipeline rating of Parada at #9 is garbage. He's a low-average hitting catcher with a touch of pop, which the Tigers already have a few of in their system, so no way we make this trade. Fangraphs doesn't have Parada even among their top 42 prospects, in part because he "has regressed as a hitter and stagnated as a defender in pro ball." He is a sunk cost, so if I'm a Mets fan, I want this trade all day long. But I'm a Tigers' fan, so the Mets and Bowden can stick this trade right up their butt sideways. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 1 hour ago, LongLiveMaroth said: Here is a proposed trade from the Athletic ; I'll be honest I would be pretty disappointed with this return. Parada isn't even ranked on Fangraphs and is 9th on pipeline. The proposed move: Mets trade C Kevin Parada to Detroit Tigers for RHP Jack Flaherty. The Mets could use another proven veteran starter if they want to make the playoffs, and acquiring Flaherty could improve their chances dramatically. Flaherty is having an impressive comeback season as he’s logged a 2.92 ERA over 14 starts with 108 strikeouts and just 13 walks in 83 1/3 innings. Entering Sunday, he was third in the majors in strikeouts per nine innings (11.7) and fourth in walks per nine (1.4). Opposing batters are hitting .234 against his four-seamer, .207 against his slider, .192 against his knuckle curve and .250 against his changeup. The price is going to be steep, but the Mets could part with Parada, a 2022 first-round pick, because he’s blocked behind Francisco Alvarez, who is their long-term catcher. The Tigers desperately need to improve their position player pool with power hitters. Parada, 22, is hitting just .209 but has nine doubles, seven home runs and 29 RBIs this season at Double-A Binghamton. Last year he hit .248 with 14 home runs, 54 RBIs and a .752 OPS across three minor-league levels. Most evaluators see him as a .260-type hitter with 20 home runs when fully developed. Flaherty will be eligible for free agency again this offseason. I don't know much about Parada, but those numbers don't look impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Parada's bat was considered one of the surest tools in the 2022 draft, and now he sounds a lot like another hitter who had huge numbers in college but has struggled in the pros; even if the bat rebounds to "catcher level" he offers nothing else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 12 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I don't know much about Parada, but those numbers don't look impressive. they look dingler-esque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 that trade proposal written by a Mets person or someone writing from that perspective? You don't trade Flaherty unless it makes the major league team better in 2024 and 2025. I'm done with prospects. That goes for Skubal too. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 8 minutes ago, oblong said: that trade proposal written by a Mets person or someone writing from that perspective? You don't trade Flaherty unless it makes the major league team better in 2024 and 2025. I'm done with prospects. That goes for Skubal too. Agreed... They have to be close or have seen some time already in the big leagues. I do not buy it 'entirely' that those types are not there. This is where all that 'improved analytics & scouting' comes in. It should not take our current group another year or two to evaluate potential targets. They have been on the job for awhile now and most have pedigree from other organizations before that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 4 hours ago, LongLiveMaroth said: Here is a proposed trade from the Athletic ; I'll be honest I would be pretty disappointed with this return. Parada isn't even ranked on Fangraphs and is 9th on pipeline. The proposed move: Mets trade C Kevin Parada to Detroit Tigers for RHP Jack Flaherty. The Mets could use another proven veteran starter if they want to make the playoffs, and acquiring Flaherty could improve their chances dramatically. Flaherty is having an impressive comeback season as he’s logged a 2.92 ERA over 14 starts with 108 strikeouts and just 13 walks in 83 1/3 innings. Entering Sunday, he was third in the majors in strikeouts per nine innings (11.7) and fourth in walks per nine (1.4). Opposing batters are hitting .234 against his four-seamer, .207 against his slider, .192 against his knuckle curve and .250 against his changeup. The price is going to be steep, but the Mets could part with Parada, a 2022 first-round pick, because he’s blocked behind Francisco Alvarez, who is their long-term catcher. The Tigers desperately need to improve their position player pool with power hitters. Parada, 22, is hitting just .209 but has nine doubles, seven home runs and 29 RBIs this season at Double-A Binghamton. Last year he hit .248 with 14 home runs, 54 RBIs and a .752 OPS across three minor-league levels. Most evaluators see him as a .260-type hitter with 20 home runs when fully developed. Flaherty will be eligible for free agency again this offseason. 209 at AA? Harris might as well buy his ticket to the land failed GMs. That’s a NYC centric proposal if I ever heard one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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