chasfh Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 13 hours ago, buddha said: we didnt get jackson holliday for jack flaherty. oh no. you guys are ridiculous. that's a decent return for an oft-injured rental starter. Who was demanding Jackson Holliday for Jack Flaherty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 13 hours ago, HeyAbbott said: Flaherty has had back issues for some time. I think Liranzo and Sweeney are fair for Flaherty. Liranzo, is the Tork insurance policy, and Sweeney is a reasonable inf. I think maybe Liranzo is a little more than just an insurance policy for Tork. Harris might be putting Tork on notice, which, honestly, Tork might not mind because he might be eager to move on to somewhere else for new start. Seems like a non-analytics organization like the White Sox or Angels or Rockies or Nationals might be a good fit for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 13 hours ago, syrett4 said: Someone posted that it seems Harris has targets he wants to go after and then zeroes in on them, unlike AA who enjoyed more lottery tickets. I'm still willing to trust Harris with Malloy, Lee, flipping Flaherty/Canha/Lorenzen/Kelly, Ibanez, Vierling. He has improved the minor league system, scouting and coaching, I'm willing to give him more time to see what he can develop in a year or two. He infused more young talent at this deadline and his first draft is already filtering into A+ with teenagers. I am totally with you on Harris and the progress he is making in our system, which was all but leveled by TFGM and so is going to take some time to actually build up. It just amuses me how people think we absolutely should be in the playoffs RIGHT ****ING NOW because it’s been ten years already, and obviously I’m sympathetic to that because I lived through all his, too, but when you calm down and think rationally about it, you can see that’s basically lashing out. I’m not sure Avila actually enjoyed lottery tickets as much as he didn’t know how to put the right kind of work into assessing prospects. For all the lip service he paid for Caesar, he either couldn’t, or wouldn’t, put anything along those lines in place to help him do his job. He took the lottery tickets because, as in the 80’s, that’s all he ever thought prospects even were. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 13 hours ago, HeyAbbott said: This team had a lot of holes at 8 AM today. It has a lot of holes at 6:51 PM today. We need an everyday 1B, SS and 3B, not to mention a whole lot of health elsewhere. Tork is not the answer at 1B, and never will be. Baez hasn't been embalmed at SS, but he is realistically done. 3B is more confusing than a flash mob with a Chinese dragon in Warsaw, Poland. Assuming perfect health, we are way short of a true playoff team. We have been pretty well banged up. Find a starting pitcher and a 3B from free agency and maybe there is hope for next year. That’s really what it comes down to: out was a combination of key guys underperforming horribly and guys getting banged up. If Tork and Baez, and maybe Meadows and definitely Manning, had stayed true to their projections, and Carpenter and Mize and (later) Olson had been able to stay on the field, we might have won 84 games this season. But even with everything falling apart, we have been, and still are, within shouting distance of .500. So we may not be a top contender for a ring next year, but we may not be as far, far away as fans might think. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 12 hours ago, Longgone said: He has the power, not the hit tool. OTOH, TBF, Liranzo is not a finished major league product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 12 hours ago, Hongbit said: Hopefully this means Ty Madden and Lael Lockhart getting extended looks. It will be pitchers we believe we can get the clock ticking on without any real future consequence, exactly as with Sammons and Montero, which is why—and I know you didn’t say this, but others have—Jobe has no chance to come up this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 (edited) Mediocre gms lose deals on the margins over the long term. Harris strategy of over-asking and waiting till the end is an issue for me. And yes, I don't have all of the information. I'm passing judgement on what other people report and my own opinion. I still expect Harris to take a long term approach to this rebuild. They are going to make marginal improvements around the mlb roster and use internal development to increase their roster. I'm sure they are going to try and compete in the Skubal window but it will be without a lot of contract risk. He has not done anything risky to add talent to the major league team. They've done a lot of things to improve the minor league infrastructure. Those might bear fruit down the road. I don't have unending patience or hope. He seems to think that everything will work out eventually. Edited July 31 by kdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 (edited) 14 minutes ago, chasfh said: OTOH, TBF, Liranzo is not a finished major league product. I'm never that excited about young guys whose calling card is power whose contact skill haven't been proven. Guys who have the hit tool stand a better chance of developing power than guys with power have of developing the hit tool if it isn't there. The latter is just by far the rarer skill. So I'm not knocking the kid per se, I just don't think the power at 20 in the low minors tells you all that much about whether he projects to ever hitting in the majors. Edited July 31 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 (edited) 13 hours ago, Tenacious D said: I think Sammons, Lockhart and Hurter will be the starters, unless they try and stretch out Faedo or Brieske. Or perhaps Madden, too. And Faedo, who is proving he is not a major league starter, may get a few nods to chow innings for us. I'm thinking it’s going to be all about warm bodies for the rest of this season. I’m doubtful they’ll try to stretch Brieske. He hasn’t thrown more than three innings since Avila days, when he was perfectly awful doing so. Edited July 31 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRamage Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 13 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: A team whose strength going forward was supposed to be pitching now has one of the weaker staffs and less AAA depth than average and while the pitching went poof we've seen Keith look good and Perez and Malloy look like they might stick. Net/net we've lost ground for the year. I think that's definitely true, but... I think that would have been true before the trades, if maybe not quite as much. 3 of our 6 players penciled is an Major league starters are injured with now in Mize, Olson, and Manning. Another 1 has just totally bombed out and been demoted. That means we had 2 good starting pitchers. Starting pitching on 7/30 was in bad shape. For 2025, are we really in any worse shape that we were two days ago? Sure, triple A pitching isn't as deep as it was because we've had to call up Montero and will have to call up more now. But these are guys we hoped would be pushing for starting jobs next year and/or will be pushed back to triple-A if the three guys listed above come back healthy. The ground we've lost for the year isn't because of the trades, it's because of the injuries and underperformance of key players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLiveMaroth Posted July 31 Author Share Posted July 31 1 minute ago, RedRamage said: The ground we've lost for the year isn't because of the trades, it's because of the injuries and underperformance of key players. I've run out of likes but this right here. We would have been buyers if Maeda hadn't forgotten how to pitch and Tork had continued his strong fall from last year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 (edited) 9 minutes ago, RedRamage said: For 2025, are we really in any worse shape that we were two days ago? Not so much 2 days ago but comparing opening day to opening day. When the season started Wentz, Faedo, hadn't yet really proved themselves as incapable, we still had hope for Brieske, we thought Casey's availability problems were behind him. Now granted none of those things were more than optimism/projection, but having them all turn to dross definitely takes the bloom off the strength of position we hoped to be in by this off-season, when at least for me, I thought we would have XS pitching that would be good enough to land a front line position player or two in trade. The cold reality we are left with now is that we go into another off-season without any XS roster value to use as trade capital on either the pitching or position side of the roster. And yes - of course - Maeda and Torkelson.... Edited July 31 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 13 minutes ago, kdog said: Mediocre gms lose deals on the margins over the long term. Harris strategy of over-asking and waiting till the end is an issue for me. And yes, I don't have all of the information. I'm passing judgement on what other people report and my own opinion. I still expect Harris to take a long term approach to this rebuild. They are going to make marginal improvements around the mlb roster and use internal development to increase their roster. I'm sure they are going to try and compete in the Skubal window but it will be without a lot of contract risk. He has not done anything risky to add talent to the major league team. They've done a lot of things to improve the minor league infrastructure. Those might bear fruit down the road. I don't have unending patience or hope. He seems to think that everything will work out eventually. I'm not sure I follow the flaw in asking for too much and waiting until the end. Are you supposed to ask for less up front and hope they offer more? I don't buy any reporting that's out there, at least not from the Tigers side. They don't leak and I refuse to believe our beat writers have any inside knowledge. They're just as in the dark as we are. The thing with the Yankees came from them to save face, a real bush league move if you ask me. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 10 hours ago, Edman85 said: All based on stuff metrics, pitch shape, etc. Anybody can recite baseball reference stats. What part of “that ridiculous” do you not understand?? 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 10 hours ago, Tigermojo said: Scott Harris: Tigers never close to trading Tarik Skubal (audacy.com) Probably because he never got the offer I proposed a few dozen pages ago that Greg Pappas laughed off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 the grades for the Tigers are all over the place both for the main deal and the deadline in general - basically, no one knows what else was on the table, no one knows if FLaherty's back will hold up, and no one knows which of the prospects will work out eventually 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 20 minutes ago, RedRamage said: I think that's definitely true, but... I think that would have been true before the trades, if maybe not quite as much. 3 of our 6 players penciled is an Major league starters are injured with now in Mize, Olson, and Manning. Another 1 has just totally bombed out and been demoted. That means we had 2 good starting pitchers. Starting pitching on 7/30 was in bad shape. For 2025, are we really in any worse shape that we were two days ago? Sure, triple A pitching isn't as deep as it was because we've had to call up Montero and will have to call up more now. But these are guys we hoped would be pushing for starting jobs next year and/or will be pushed back to triple-A if the three guys listed above come back healthy. The ground we've lost for the year isn't because of the trades, it's because of the injuries and underperformance of key players. What kind of contigencies will we build in if young players don't progress? This is still about the major league roster at some point right? Well-laid development plans don't always work out to give you a ready made roster at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 13 minutes ago, oblong said: I'm not sure I follow the flaw in asking for too much and waiting until the end. Are you supposed to ask for less up front and hope they offer more? I don't buy any reporting that's out there, at least not from the Tigers side. They don't leak and I refuse to believe our beat writers have any inside knowledge. They're just as in the dark as we are. The thing with the Yankees came from them to save face, a real bush league move if you ask me. Ok the return he got for Flaherty is process and results. We'll see how that goes. I don't like his approach overall of team building. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 (edited) Pre deadline...it looked like the floor for the return on Flaherty was the comp pick in the 30's ...where McGonigle was picked. The main piece of the return is Laranzo, who slots in just behind McGonigle in our top 30. Switch hitting C with some pop...ok by me. If there was a deal with the Yankees that was torpedoed by the medical reports..it would be interesting to hear what that deal looked like. If we tank badly enough...maybe we can get some lotto luck and come away with Jace LaViolette ...plays OF in college but some think his future is at 1B. He's the Tork replacement... But we'll likely have to pick in the top 3 to get him Edited July 31 by Shinzaki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 quick winter shopping list: C: #3 catcher 1: need a multi-positional guy who can slide to first (not Canha but like him) if Tork flops again 2: covered for now SS: need short and medium term options as Baez/McKinstry/Kreidler are bad; Sweeney seems stretched at SS 3: have so many blah internal options, Harris will again ignore external options OF: need another CF option if Veirling at 3rd; need RH power Need 2 starters and 2 BP arms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 51 minutes ago, kdog said: Mediocre gms lose deals on the margins over the long term. Harris strategy of over-asking and waiting till the end is an issue for me. And yes, I don't have all of the information. I'm passing judgement on what other people report and my own opinion. I still expect Harris to take a long term approach to this rebuild. They are going to make marginal improvements around the mlb roster and use internal development to increase their roster. I'm sure they are going to try and compete in the Skubal window but it will be without a lot of contract risk. He has not done anything risky to add talent to the major league team. They've done a lot of things to improve the minor league infrastructure. Those might bear fruit down the road. I don't have unending patience or hope. He seems to think that everything will work out eventually. This is totally fair and we all do the same thing: make devastating judgments about the performance of high-level strategic baseball professional based on incomplete and imperfect information. What could be more fun as an engaged, analytical fan? 😁 But I want to ask you about the bold-faced part. You say Harris has a strategy of overasking and waiting until the end of the deadline to make moves that you don't like. This almost suggests that you would prefer he take lesser deals earlier in the deadline period. I'm not sure that's what you're trying to put across, so can you spool out for me what you mean by this to help me understand your thinking here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syrett4 Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 What are the rules regarding the moves they can still make? Does anyone have clarity on the rules after the deadline? Some guys on MLB teams should be DFA/reassigned today and exposing them to waiver claims (Eddys Leonard last season) 2006 Sean Casey, and I think they can still trade minor league guys not on the 40 man? Am I wrong about that? Am I missing another way they can still acquire talent this season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 I think many fans are missing the big picture of the trade deadline moves. The Tigers traded away 3 established ML players and didn't receive any players for the major league club. Will any of the new players make the majors? We'll see within a couple of years. And while Canha and Flaherty weren't signed past this season, Chafin had a team option. Being sellers, again, at the trade deadline, stinks. May as well get something for players who are going to walk. Is there hope for next season or will it still be an "evaluation" year? Harris may need to make off-season trades to bring ML talent here. We need pitching...starters and BP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 52 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I'm never that excited about young guys whose calling card is power whose contact skill haven't been proven. Guys who have the hit tool stand a better chance of developing power than guys with power have of developing the hit tool if it isn't there. The latter is just by far the rarer skill. So I'm not knocking the kid per se, I just don't think the power at 20 in the low minors tells you all that much about whether he projects to ever hitting in the majors. If I had to bet a dollar on this proposition, I would take the over on Harris sees something in the kid that suggests his hit tool can be improved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 34 minutes ago, kdog said: Ok the return he got for Flaherty is process and results. We'll see how that goes. I don't like his approach overall of team building. How would you approach team-building differently than you suspect Harris is doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.