buddha Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: The question I have about Hinch is he supposedly didn't want them to cheat and they cheated anyway. That makes him seem like a weak leader. And I know everybody is going to tell me there was nothing he could do about it. I understand that sentiment, but it's still difficult to see that happening to Leyland or Anderson. i guess so. do you think leyland didnt know rogers was using pine tar on his glove? or that gary sheffield was juiced? i think leyland knew about plenty of cheating going on and didnt do anything about it because he has to manage a team and win games. everyone clutches their pearls about aj hinch but never says boo about the other - many other - cheating instances that have occurred with their favorite players. if you somehow think the astros scandal was worse, that's your choice. i just see it as another instance in a very long line of instances of players using every advantage they can to win. just like our hero hank greenberg did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Just now, buddha said: i guess so. do you think leyland didnt know rogers was using pine tar on his glove? or that gary sheffield was juiced? i think leyland knew about plenty of cheating going on and didnt do anything about it because he has to manage a team and win games. everyone clutches their pearls about aj hinch but never says boo about the other - many other - cheating instances that have occurred with their favorite players. if you somehow think the astros scandal was worse, that's your choice. i just see it as another instance in a very long line of instances of players using every advantage they can to win. just like our hero hank greenberg did. I don't disagree, but some cheating is accepted (not saying it should be) and is largely overlooked. Hinch was not OK with the Astros cheating (or so he said) and it happened anyway. So, it seems like he was either dishonest or not respected enough. Personally, I think Hinch is a good manager overall and I am willing to forget what happened in Houston, but it's still not a good look on his past record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 1 minute ago, Tiger337 said: I don't disagree, but some cheating is accepted (not saying it should be) and is largely overlooked. Hinch was not OK with the Astros cheating (or so he said) and it happened anyway. So, it seems like he was either dishonest or not respected enough. Personally, I think Hinch is a good manager overall and I am willing to forget what happened in Houston, but it's still not a good look on his past record. i dont think its a good look either, but i am not overly concerned about it affecting his ability to manage players. he was very successful in houston when he had talented players. he has not been successful in detroit when he has not had talented players. jim leyland was great in pittsburgh when he had barry bonds, andy van slyke, and bobby bonilla and not great when he didnt. he was garbage in colorado and quit. every manager is only as good in a 162 game season as the talent he is given. the playoffs are sometimes a different story, but not always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 The one thing that is absolutely true is that a bad bullpen will make any manager look like an idiot, and the Tigers BP is trending bad. Regardless of both the love fest and the pitchforks, I'll still hold that despite his skills in many areas which I do appreciate - I still haven't seen any evidence in three years to make me think he's the guy I want running the hitting program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: The question I have about Hinch is he supposedly didn't want them to cheat and they cheated anyway. That makes him seem like a weak leader. And I know everybody is going to tell me there was nothing he could do about it. I understand that sentiment, but it's still difficult to see that happening to Leyland or Anderson. Leyland and Anderson never had the front office go around them directly to the players to enlist them in a cheating scheme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 (edited) 51 minutes ago, buddha said: everyone clutches their pearls about aj hinch but never says boo about the other - many other - cheating instances that have occurred with their favorite players. if you somehow think the astros scandal was worse, that's your choice. i just see it as another instance in a very long line of instances of players using every advantage they can to win. People hate A.J. Hinch because he has a psychology degree from Stanford. The nerve. Leyland didn't need no stinking college degree. He just blew smoke in players' faces while he yelled at them, and they loved it. Now that ... that was real baseball. Edited July 5 by chasfh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 1 minute ago, chasfh said: Leyland and Anderson never had the front office go around them directly to the players to enlist them in a cheating scheme. Which kind of shows that Hinch was irrelevant. I don't really think there is a big difference between managers but hiring Hinch seemed like a slap in the face to the fans...we suck and now we are going to hire a cheating clown who lied about everything and talks about integrity. I thought it was on a par with hiring Matt Patricia after he wore the clown shirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 2 minutes ago, chasfh said: People hate A.J. Hinch because he has a psychology degree from Stanford. The nerve. Probably because he is a hypocrite. Talks about integrity, yet he was the guy in charge of the cheating scandal, lied about it, and basically threw it everyone's face. At least Brad Ausmus wasn't a grade A douchebag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Just now, tiger2022 said: Which kind of shows that Hinch was irrelevant. If you have never had your manager at work go around you and direct your subordinates to do something you are on record as not wanting to have done, then you might not be able to imagine just how paralyzing that can be to keep you from being an effective leader. I have. I can empathize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 1 minute ago, tiger2022 said: Probably because he is a hypocrite. Talks about integrity, yet he was the guy in charge of the cheating scandal, lied about it, and basically threw it everyone's face. At least Brad Ausmus wasn't a grade A douchebag. A.J. Hinch was not the guy who was in charge of the cheating scandal. Jeff Luhnow was the guy in charge of the cheating scandal. Hinch wanted nothing to do with it. All of this has been established and is well-known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 won't someone please think of the children!!!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 (edited) AJ Hinch was in charge. The manager is responsible for what happens in the clubhouse. Edited July 5 by tiger2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Yes, A.J. Hinch was the field manager of the team, and he is responsible for what happens in the clubhouse, even if it's a cheating scandal everyone knows he was opposed to. And he was fired from the team for it, and was also suspended from the game for an entire year. He served his sentence, and as with all people who serve the sentences that are imposed on them, now he gets to have a fresh start. That will never be enough for some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 47 minutes ago, chasfh said: Leyland and Anderson never had the front office go around them directly to the players to enlist them in a cheating scheme. That might say as much about Leyland and Anderson as it does about the Astros front office. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Just now, Tiger337 said: That might say as much about Leyland and Anderson as it does about the Astros front office. Are you saying the Lajoie and Dombrowski front offices wanted to implement cheating schemes but knew they couldn't because Leyland and Anderson? 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 46 minutes ago, chasfh said: People hate A.J. Hinch because he has a psychology degree from Stanford. The nerve. Leyland didn't need no stinking college degree. He just blew smoke in players' faces while he yelled at them, and they loved it. Now that ... that was real baseball. I know someone who rags on him for wearing a sweatshirt over his jersey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 31 minutes ago, tiger2022 said: AJ Hinch was in charge. The manager is responsible for what happens in the clubhouse. The way I read this is that the Astros players who got busted and then started singing in order to avoid serving any time themselves were eager to push the responsibility of this to literally everyone else but themselves. Of course they're going to blame Hinch for not telling them to stop, even though it was widely reported that he did not approve of the scheme, which he surely communicated to them. It just doesn't pass the smell test that he would have said nothing to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 He may have served his time but his part in the cheating scandal doesnt just go away. no reason for the tigers to hire someone who displayed a complete lack of leadership and lack of integrity when there are literally thousands of other people without the baggage following them around that they could have hired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 4 minutes ago, chasfh said: The way I read this is that the Astros players who got busted and then started singing in order to avoid serving any time themselves were eager to push the responsibility of this to literally everyone else but themselves. Of course they're going to blame Hinch for not telling them to stop, even though it was widely reported that he did not approve of the scheme, which he surely communicated to them. It just doesn't pass the smell test that he would have said nothing to them. Hinch never tried. He never told the players to stop. That shows a huge lack of integrity and leadership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Not all orgs are setup the same way in terms of power structure. There’s formal and informal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 (edited) 11 minutes ago, tiger2022 said: He may have served his time but his part in the cheating scandal doesnt just go away. no reason for the tigers to hire someone who displayed a complete lack of leadership and lack of integrity when there are literally thousands of other people without the baggage following them around that they could have hired. It's always on his record, so it won't go away in that sense. But he served his time for it, the time that Baseball itself imposed on him, and now his slate is clean, and now he gets to move on with his life. And your 100% certainty to the contrary, I don't believe Hinch never told the players he was against the scheme. His actions (e.g., smashing the monitors they used to see the stolen signs) say otherwise, so again, that simply makes no sense. Look, if you hate the Tigers so much because they disrespected you by hiring someone you despise, then maybe this isn't the team for you. If you want to follow a team you respect, maybe consider following some other team. The Twins are doing pretty good these days. Edited July 5 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 (edited) Why is that your response to anyone who has anything critical about the tigers...maybe you should follow another team? And no...he never told the players to stop. And I don't see him giving back his world series ring. Edited July 5 by tiger2022 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 11 minutes ago, tiger2022 said: Why is that your response to anyone who has anything critical about the tigers...maybe you should follow another team? And no...he never told the players to stop. And I don't see him giving back his world series ring. I don't believe Chas has made a habit of that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 13 minutes ago, tiger2022 said: Why is that your response to anyone who has anything critical about the tigers...maybe you should follow another team? And no...he never told the players to stop. And I don't see him giving back his world series ring. You are just so relentlessly negative on every. Single. Aspect. Of this team. You seem so unhappy about everything, all of it, and I just want you to be happy. Also, I don't believe he never told his players to stop, because the overwhelming evidence revealed by the reporting all but confirms that he did tell his players he wanted them to stop. And he's not giving back his ring because no one told him he has to. The players who absolutely did engage in the cheating are also not giving back their rings. We'll have the agree to disagree, but I'm pretty sure the evidence for my position is a lot stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Wasn’t there a general optimism about the starting pitching depth heading into this season? A Gipson-Long season ending injury, Maeda absolute crash and burn, Manning regression, and Madden stall at Toledo later, the depth seems to have gotten shallow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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