*Summer League* 7/13/24 7:00PM Pistons at 76ers

[Deleterious]

Pippen Jr. is what you want from a 2nd year player in SL.

20 PPG 7.8 apg, 3 steals per game.

Obviously only 4 games.  But it will be a lot better than the 4 Sasser will play.

[buddha]

i dont understand, what does ron holland do well?

is he that good of an athlete?  doesnt seem like it.  can he defend his butt off like ausar?  doesnt seem like it.  can he shoot?  no.  not at all.  can he dribble and get his own shot?  didnt seem like it.

he seems quite ordinary in every way.

i get that summer league is a joke and a glorified pick up game, but for a guy who was touted as an athletic freak you would assume he would show out in such and environment.  instead he looks boring, ground bound, and ordinary.

i was not impressed at all.  bobi looked like a more viable nba player simply because he is tall and can shoot.

[Deleterious]

I get Stanley Johnson vibes from Holland.  

[Shinzaki]

I agree... Holland is not quick off his feet...lacks explosion.  That little floater in the lane he's so fond of is going back down his throat against real rim defenders.

[casimir]

12 hours ago, buddha said:

i dont understand, what does ron holland do well?

is he that good of an athlete?  doesnt seem like it.  can he defend his butt off like ausar?  doesnt seem like it.  can he shoot?  no.  not at all.  can he dribble and get his own shot?  didnt seem like it.

he seems quite ordinary in every way.

i get that summer league is a joke and a glorified pick up game, but for a guy who was touted as an athletic freak you would assume he would show out in such and environment.  instead he looks boring, ground bound, and ordinary.

i was not impressed at all.  bobi looked like a more viable nba player simply because he is tall and can shoot.

Maybe he's just tired and needs a game off?

[buddha]

12 hours ago, Deleterious said:

I get Stanley Johnson vibes from Holland.  

some piston twitter folks are all ga-ga about what he did yesterday.  i dont get it.  but those are the same guys who were saying killian was an integral part of the team last year.

i didnt see explosiveness, i saw a guy who could barely get over the rim on dunks.  he did finish in traffic a couple times that was ok.  he looks strong-ish, especially for his age.

unfortunately, i am also getting stanley vibes physically.  i havent heard any mindless braggadoccio yet like stanley used to do.

physically he looks like a bigger kcp only he cant shoot.

[Deleterious]

The Pistons did a really nice job building the summer team league to match the real team.  Down 28 at the half.

[Deleterious]

Rob Dillingham was the only top 10 pick to shoot >30% from three in summer league. He shot 31%.

[Betrayer]

Every Piston fan loves to compare young wings who shoot poorly to Stanley Johnson because of our PTSD. Last year it was Ausar and now it's Holland. Stanley was all bully-ball with poor athleticism, going through people for a lot of under the rim play. He was a bruiser. That above the rim dunk attempt Holland had in the second half of Game 1 alone is enough film for anyone to know that he ain't Stanley Johnson. Who knows if he'll be good or not, but either way it's a terrible comp unless you're just comparing their eventual success in the league, in which case you may or may be right. We'll see in a few years, because he's obviously a project.

[NYLion]

I don't see Stanley Johnson at all with Ron Holland, it's a lazy comparison tbh. He looks like a bigger, less speedy Ivey offensively with the way he attacks. Stanley didn't have near the athleticism that Holland has.

Anyway, it was nice to see him have a good game yesterday. You could see flashes of a potentially good player, he just needs to learn to play more under control which is something that Ivey, to go back to that comp, hasn't figured out yet.

[Deleterious]

Holland can't shoot, can't pass or won't. Not nearly as athletic as people think. Not explosive at all. Massively overrated on defense. 

If I gave that description to the police they would pick Johnson up in about 30 seconds.

[buddha]

i dont get the slobbering over holland.  is he as ground bound as stanley?  no.  but he's not NEARLY as athletic as ivey.  

again, to me he really looks like a taller, bigger kcp without the jumper.  he's nba athletic but stiff.  he's not fluid at all.  

he has shown the ability to finish in traffic but i dont know if that will translate on nba defenders.  he really looks like he plays below the rim.

cade is a little like that too, but cade has a fluidity to his game, a control.  holland is all out to the rim and doesnt see what else is around him.

maybe that comes with time.  but its not there now.  looks like he ceiling is nba role player.  that's nothing to sneeze at but less than what you want from #5 overall.  

they've taken three very flawed players at #5 the last 3 years.  of all of ivey, thompson, and holland, i think ivey has the best chance to break out because of the great offensive athletic ability.  ausar will be defense only forever.  holland looks like a jack of all trades master of none to me.

[Deleterious]

His kids and grandkids will never hear the end of this story.  The day pops won summer league on national TV.

 

[NYLion]

16 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Holland can't shoot, can't pass or won't. Not nearly as athletic as people think. Not explosive at all. Massively overrated on defense. 

If I gave that description to the police they would pick Johnson up in about 30 seconds.

It's a lazy comparison and you went hyperbolic on some of those points. Not explosive at all?  Have to disagree with that one. I saw him make some nice passes as well even though it won't be a strength of his clearly.

I'm not even the biggest fan of the pick mainly because he's another non-shooter but he does a lot of other things well where you can see flashes of a good player at least based on what I've seen on SL. 

My biggest issue with Holland is that Ivey-esque tunnel vision when he's driving to the rim but I did see some adjustments by him in that last game so it makes me think that he at least has the capability to play more under control. He's very young, he's raw, it's too soon to make declarations about what type of player he is.

Edited July 23, 2024 by NYLion

[Deleterious]

1 hour ago, NYLion said:

It's a lazy comparison and you went hyperbolic on some of those points. Not explosive at all?  Have to disagree with that one. I saw him make some nice passes as well even though it won't be a strength of his clearly.

I'm not even the biggest fan of the pick mainly because he's another non-shooter but he does a lot of other things well where you can see flashes of a good player at least based on what I've seen on SL. 

My biggest issue with Holland is that Ivey-esque tunnel vision when he's driving to the rim but I did see some adjustments by him in that last game so it makes me think that he at least has the capability to play more under control. He's very young, he's raw, it's too soon to make declarations about what type of player he is.

I don't even know what "lazy comparison" means. 

Since he was drafted I have been going back to watch Ignite games.  Probably watched 8 or 9 of his so far.  

He is not explosive by NBA standards and very much reminds me of SJ.  Advertised as explosive coming into the league, but it doesn't translate to the NBA.  Not a bad leaper but doesn't jump well when facing contact.  Almost never dunks in traffic.  Always a finger roll or a layup, which isn't terrible.  But facing elite shock blockers in the NBA is going to be problematic for him.

It isn't just the eye test either.  His lane agility time at the combine?  11.10 seconds.  Zack Edey?  11.19 seconds.  2.91 for the shuttle run while Edey was 3.01.  Knecht who projects strictly as a spot up shooter had times of 10.56 and 2.79.  In the NBA as a wing he will be very average athletically.  

I don't understand the Ivey comp at all.  First, Ivey does not have tunnel vision.  Ivey had a decent assist rate when playing PG when Cade was hurt.  Even last year playing off ball his assist rate was 20%.  Pretty respectable.  Ivey has a problem of playing too fast and then making dumb decisions.  But he is definitely a willing passer.

 

[Betrayer]

22 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Holland can't shoot, can't pass or won't. Not nearly as athletic as people think. Not explosive at all. Massively overrated on defense. 

If I gave that description to the police they would pick Johnson up in about 30 seconds.

That description fits about 1/3rd of the players drafted since 2005. Even so, it's a bad comp because SJ was a bully-ball player, nothing like Ron. The only thing that comp is good for is riling up Piston's fans. From that same draft, Oubre is actually a better comp. But if we squint our eyes hard enough we can make any comp we want, even rookie Jalen Brown.

I don't expect him to become Stanley, Oubre, or Brown, but we'll all find out in a couple years. For now, I'm pretty certain this regime is happy to let him develop with vets he can learn from and have to beat for the spot, rather than depending on a project to win games for you day 1 like the last regime did.

Edited July 23, 2024 by Betrayer

[NYLion]

22 hours ago, Deleterious said:

I don't even know what "lazy comparison" means. 

Since he was drafted I have been going back to watch Ignite games.  Probably watched 8 or 9 of his so far.  

He is not explosive by NBA standards and very much reminds me of SJ.  Advertised as explosive coming into the league, but it doesn't translate to the NBA.  Not a bad leaper but doesn't jump well when facing contact.  Almost never dunks in traffic.  Always a finger roll or a layup, which isn't terrible.  But facing elite shock blockers in the NBA is going to be problematic for him.

It isn't just the eye test either.  His lane agility time at the combine?  11.10 seconds.  Zack Edey?  11.19 seconds.  2.91 for the shuttle run while Edey was 3.01.  Knecht who projects strictly as a spot up shooter had times of 10.56 and 2.79.  In the NBA as a wing he will be very average athletically.  

I don't understand the Ivey comp at all.  First, Ivey does not have tunnel vision.  Ivey had a decent assist rate when playing PG when Cade was hurt.  Even last year playing off ball his assist rate was 20%.  Pretty respectable.  Ivey has a problem of playing too fast and then making dumb decisions.  But he is definitely a willing passer.

 

It's a lazy comparison because it's not a valid comparison and Pistons fans due to PTSD or whatever point to a failed prospect of a previous regime and compare the new guy they don't like to him simply because it was a former Piston who failed to make it. I've been guilty of it as well with the Drummond and Duren comparison even though they aren't all that alike.

The reason why I made the Ivey comparison in terms of Holland driving the ball is because he gets to dead spots on the floor too often where he either forces up a bad shot or makes a bad pass, it's something he needs to work on to control his chaos more similar to Ivey. Ivey is more of a playmaker no doubt but I'm just saying it's not like Holland never looks to pass, he made some nice ones in the final SL game when he ran more like a point forward.

I think we just need to let this play out. He's really young and he's raw so there's a lot he needs to work on but there's also a bundle of talent to work with so I wouldn't be writing his obituary as a player yet.