LOCKOUT '22: When will we see baseball again?

[John_Brian_K]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

You think it's easy to be a Major League Baseball player for a living?  

SUPER easy <sarcasm> for the tone deaf.  You guys are moving the goal posts all over the place....I never said it was easy...I said they are not taking the risks...they are doing their jobs...jobs that are NOT easy, but I am not going to sympathize with a guy who has been given all the opportunities in life to make it in the biggs...from preferential treatments in school, to families making concessions, families helping to support them while they try to make it etc...for that guy to "only" make like 700,000 a year...and then they gets fans to sympathize for them ..

[chasfh]

27 minutes ago, Longgone said:

For heavens sake, it's not a matter of reasonable. Its a negotiation. It's a lot of demands from the current negotiated agreement with no concessions. What sounds "reasonable" to you is irrelevant .

I don't think we know that there have been no concessions from the players. None of us are part of either side of the negotiating table—or, at least, I'm not. I'm just suggesting that if it was your intention to portray Players as an unreasonable, unyielding barrier to our continuing enjoyment of the offseason by highlighting what appears to be reasonable positions on their part, your effort is falling short of that mark.

[John_Brian_K]

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

How did I move the goal posts?  You were talking about taking risks like it's an honorable thing.  I disagreed.  Business owners taking risks does not warrant any special consideration.  If they buy a team and they lose money, that's their fault.  How much money the players make is irrelevant to my argument.  

Talking about what "we say" when poor people take risks...I have no idea what that even means.

[mtutiger]

Just now, John_Brian_K said:

.... but I am not going to sympathize with a guy who has been given all the opportunities in life to make it in the biggs...from preferential treatments in school, to families making concessions, families helping to support them while they try to make it etc...for that guy to "only" make like 700,000 a year...and then they gets fans to sympathize for them ..

You really think this is the case for every MLB ballplayer? 

Really?

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, John_Brian_K said:

SUPER easy <sarcasm> for the tone deaf.  You guys are moving the goal posts all over the place....I never said it was easy...I said they are not taking the risks...they are doing their jobs...jobs that are NOT easy, but I am not going to sympathize with a guy who has been given all the opportunities in life to make it in the biggs...from preferential treatments in school, to families making concessions, families helping to support them while they try to make it etc...for that guy to "only" make like 700,000 a year...and then they gets fans to sympathize for them ..

I don't feel bad for the wealthy players.  I just think they are right in this case.  I don't get why people taking risks means they should get special consideration.  That is just something wealthy businessmen have pounded into us to justify paying lower salaries than people are worth.   

[chasfh]

13 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

How did I move the goal posts?  You were talking about taking risks like it's an honorable thing.  I disagreed.  Business owners taking risks does not warrant any special consideration.  If they buy a team and they lose money, that's their fault.  How much money the players make is irrelevant to my argument.  

Especially in the only federally-protected monopoly environment in the country.

[Tiger337]

2 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

Talking about what "we say" when poor people take risks...I have no idea what that even means.

Suppose a college student gets a big loan thinking he can make it back with a great career and then he can't find a job when he's done and is in debt for years.  Does he deserve special consideration for taking a risk?  If someone buys a house and then can't pay his mortgage when he loses his job, does he get special consideration for taking a risk?    

[John_Brian_K]

3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Why does taking a risk deserve special consideration?  Don't we always tell regular people not too take risks with their money?  

Who is this "we" you keep referring to?  

To be a 100% honest I am not nearly as far in the corner of the owners as it may appear on here, but I am sick of the "old white rich guy" being blamed for every problem..and this is coming for a non rich middle aged white guy whose family was nowhere close to middle class so it is not like I am defending my fathers honor or something.  The owners are rich and I find it extremely laughable that people are trying to claim the average MLB player is not a millionaire...not sure where that comes from...only because the owners are "more rich" maybe?  No idea, but the defense of them is weird to me.  I know people who are worth a million...they are millionaires by definition...they do not make anywhere close to the min salary an MLB player does.

It is a difficult thing to make all the right decisions to keep a business going.  The MLB may very well be a "sandbox" for the owners, but without them we do not have baseball.

[Longgone]

57 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don't think we know that there have been no concessions from the players. None of us are part of either side of the negotiating table—or, at least, I'm not. I'm just suggesting that if it was your intention to portray Players as an unreasonable, unyielding barrier to our continuing enjoyment of the offseason by highlighting what appears to be reasonable positions on their part, your effort is falling short of that mark.

I'm not advocating for either side. Merely stating the situation that exists that makes this negotiation a bit difficult. The players have lots of demands and few concessions to give, The owners have meager demands, and no incentive to make concessions. That makes these negotiations tricky and puts the onus for movement on the players. Those are just facts.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Longgone

[chasfh]

14 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

So because the Illitchs have other assets they are taking no risk with the baseball side of things?  Give me a break?  In what world does a business as large as an MLB team mean nothing because the owners are diversified?  Also are you really crying a river over the MLB player who makes millions a year to play a game? People on here are acting like they are in the poor house...like Lee said if they are having issues with money that is on them, not the owners.

Owning a baseball team is not the main source of income for any of the owners, and they have generational wealth that will survive them, so their risk is minimal. Not true of Players: for most of those guys, game stops, income stops. If for no other reason than this, it's obvious the lions' share of risk is on the players.

14 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

The media has nothing to do with me knowing the players are (or SHOULD be if they are half intelligent about investing or managing money) millionaires. 

This made me lol because, literally, the only reason you know what players make is the media.

[mtutiger]

Another thing I don't get about those who hate the players for trying to maximize their value is how people sort of ignore the whole service time aspect of it.

The average MLB ballplayer plays for 5.6 years, at least as of 2007 (maybe it has evolved). Do I make less money annually as an engineer than a ballplayer does? Yes. But I'm also gonna be able to work upward of 40 years in my career. Hell, I'll probably make more money in my 40 year career than some MLB ballplayers do in their big league careers.

So again, with the sacrifices made (with many who make sacrifices who don't ever make it to the big leagues) and the limited timespan of an average MLB career, I don't blame any of them for maximizing their value. Not one bit.

Edited December 2, 2021 by mtutiger

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, John_Brian_K said:

Who is this "we" you keep referring to?  

To be a 100% honest I am not nearly as far in the corner of the owners as it may appear on here, but I am sick of the "old white rich guy" being blamed for every problem..and this is coming for a non rich middle aged white guy whose family was nowhere close to middle class so it is not like I am defending my fathers honor or something.  The owners are rich and I find it extremely laughable that people are trying to claim the average MLB player is not a millionaire...not sure where that comes from...only because the owners are "more rich" maybe?  No idea, but the defense of them is weird to me.  I know people who are worth a million...they are millionaires by definition...they do not make anywhere close to the min salary an MLB player does.

It is a difficult thing to make all the right decisions to keep a business going.  The MLB may very well be a "sandbox" for the owners, but without them we do not have baseball.

I don't feel bad for most of the players.  I just don't get why owners taking a risk makes them deserving of special consideration.  There is not inherently good about taking a risk. 

[RatkoVarda]

2 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

it is a difficult thing to make all the right decisions to keep a business going.  The MLB may very well be a "sandbox" for the owners, but without them we do not have baseball.

Packers are owned by their community and no reason to think that Ilitch could not sell team to the fans if he wanted to rid himself of his risky investment

 

[mtutiger]

2 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

Packers are owned by their community and no reason to think that Ilitch could not sell team to the fans if he wanted to rid himself of his risky investment

 

Forget the fans, there's probably another Steve Cohen (Dan Gilbert?) who would take them if the Ilitches wanted out.

[Tiger337]

9 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

It is a difficult thing to make all the right decisions to keep a business going.  The MLB may very well be a "sandbox" for the owners, but without them we do not have baseball.

It would be pretty hard to have baseball without players! 

[RatkoVarda]

Won't somebody rid me of this money making machine, before I have to buy a fourth jet?

[gehringer_2]

52 minutes ago, theroundsquare said:

In my experience, in any negotiation, you have to have some things to negotiate away.  If there were not some things the players could live without among their demands, there would be no negotiation.  

None of us really know all the demands, what people really want, and what they are willing to do without.  

yeah - find out what the other side really wants that you don't care about, act like you care about it a lot. Give it away in the end to get what you want. Negotiation 101.

I'd guess the failure between these two groups is that they don't listen to each other seriously enough to ever figure out the part above.

Edited December 2, 2021 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

7 minutes ago, Longgone said:

I'm not advocating for either side. Merely stating the situation that exists that makes this negotiation a bit difficult. The players have lots of demands and few concessions to give, The owners have meager demands, and no incentive to make concessions. That makes these negotiations tricky and puts to onus for movement on the players. Those are just facts.

This, I agree with 100%. You and I are on the same page here.

[mtutiger]

7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

It would be pretty hard to have baseball without players! 

You mean fans don't just show up at Comerica to watch Chris I count his money?

[gehringer_2]

25 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't feel bad for most of the players.  I just don't get why owners taking a risk makes them deserving of special consideration.  There is not inherently good about taking a risk. 

I'd go back the point about the risk though. The players have all taken a huge risk to get where they are They literally risked the rest of their lives that could make in the majors from the time they were probably teenagers. The opportunity cost for the guys that put in all the years on the field and never make it are huge. You just don't turn around with just a HS diploma after being cut at 25 and embark on your your second career choice to be a doctor.

Edited December 2, 2021 by gehringer_2

[mtutiger]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

The opportunity cost for the guys that put in all the years on the field and never make it are huge. You just don't turn around with just a HS diploma at 25 and embark on your your second career choice to be a doctor.

This is the point that I was trying to get at in my last post.

I have no doubt that there are MLB players in the league today who me, average person with average engineering job at in my low 30s, will outearn over the course of my lifetime. Not even including any earnings on 401k or other retirement compensation.

And yeah, that doesn't even get at the ones who don't ever get out of the minor leagues.

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

This is the point that I was trying to get at in my last post.

I have no doubt that there are MLB players in the league today who me, average person with average engineering job at in my low 30s, will outearn over the course of my lifetime. Not even including any earnings on 401k or other retirement compensation.

And yeah, that doesn't even get at the ones who don't ever get out of the minor leagues.

and just to extend the point, not every owner took any risk at all to be where he is. Not to dump on Chris Ilitch, he may turn out to be great owner in the long run, but there is a guy who pretty much never risked anything to be where he is. I'm sure he is not the only owner who is there by a similar path.

[davidsb623]

7 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

And yeah, that doesn't even get at the ones who don't ever get out of the minor leagues.

This is the only real player issue I see today.  Minor leaguers are typically paid below poverty level.  They were better compensated with the minor league reorganization last year but there is still a long way to go.  Minor league coaches also.

[Longgone]

6 minutes ago, davidsb623 said:

This is the only real player issue I see today.  Minor leaguers are typically paid below poverty level.  They were better compensated with the minor league reorganization last year but there is still a long way to go.  Minor league coaches also.

Unfortunately, none of them are covered by the agreement.

[mtutiger]

4 minutes ago, davidsb623 said:

This is the only real player issue I see today.  Minor leaguers are typically paid below poverty level.  They were better compensated with the minor league reorganization last year but there is still a long way to go.  Minor league coaches also.

Definitely.

One thing I would suggest is that part of the fundamental disagreement on this thread also boils down to whether one sees the issue of minor league compensation intrinsically linked with MLB compensation piece, or whether they are just compartmentalized issues. 

I would tell you right now that I'd probably have a little less sympathy for the players if most of them didn't have to sacrifice so much on the front end of their careers in order to get to where they have gotten. I think there is a lot of sacrifice, I don't believe that, paraphrasing JBK, they all get massive preferential treatment in school or have significant support systems to help them as they advance. I'm sure a few do, but many (especially foreign born players) likely do not.

Just given all of that, I just don't blame players for trying to maximize their value. I really don't.