LOCKOUT '22: When will we see baseball again?

[Tiger337]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

its a very local sport.

i'd watch the chargers play the jets on a tuesday afternoon, but i wouldnt think about watching a baseball game i dont have a rooting interest in (dont care about anything but watching the tigers win, the cubs play, and the white sox lose).

The gamblers and fantasy baseball players don't care what teams are playing.  They jump from game to game all night long.   

[buddha]

1 minute ago, Tiger337 said:

The gamblers and fantasy baseball players don't care what teams are playing.  They jump from game to game all night long.   

what we need to do is get rid of gambling and fantasy baseball and return the game to its purity!  only people who love baseball and are willing to sit through 4 hour games need apply for tickets.

that will definitely solve baseball's problems.

[Tiger337]

45 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

general sympathies might be against the owners as they are evil capitalists, but the fact that it's been mostly the players standing in the way of improving the game makes it damn hard to be in their corner either. 

They are also well payed as they should be.  It is not a social justice situation like many people on twitter are making it out to be.  They are less annoying than the owners took a risk and they earned their money crowd, but it's really hard to stand for either side.   

[buddha]

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

They are also well payed as they should be.  It is not a social justice situation like many people on twitter are making it out to be.  They are less annoying than the owners took a risk and they earned their money crowd, but it's really hard to stand for either side.   

"took a risk" and inherited dad's money...

[Tiger337]

Just now, buddha said:

what we need to do is get rid of gambling and fantasy baseball and return the game to its purity!  only people who love baseball and are willing to sit through 4 hour games need apply for tickets.

that will definitely solve baseball's problems.

I play fantasy baseball.  I am just pointing out that it's not as regional as people are saying here.  I actually don't think young people follow sports at all the way we used to follow it. There is a lot less sitting there and watching games. They'll be jumping around social media and somebody tells them about an exciting play and they will go pull up the highlight and check it out.  Then they'll go do something else.  

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

the problem for the players union is that they are fighting the wrong battle. The teams near the cap are not the problem for baseball salaries, it's the teams nowhere near the cap who won't be affected at all by whatever the number is. How much difference will the lux tax number have on the Marlins or Pirates? Exactly none. If anything, Manfred is right that the tax money is one route for low revenue teams to spend more - thought without a mechanism to force that, that's also is an empty promise. But It's teams *with* "cap space", that, and pre-arb salaries that hold down the revenue split, not the cap. As a union in toto, the player's union is a total failure - all they are interested is protecting the interests of their own "1%" class to sign half billion dollar contracts, which again, does nothing for the most of their membership or median salaries at all.

I don't think this characterization is at all accurate. The union is trying to win numerous gains for the youngest and least paid of their membership: they've asked for a substantial raise in minimum salary to levels commensurate with the three other major sports; they tried to get two-year players paid by having arbitration encompass all of them instead of 22% of them; they've been trying to get a substantial pre-arb bonus pool in place so young players working on minimum can earn extra dough through performance incentive, whereas before they had nothing like that; they tried to move free agency eligibility from six years to five. I also didn't see any asks that tried to get the "1%" class paid even more at all, let alone at the expense of the 99% of the membership.

It's the current system that has created the situation resulting in the "1%" class, while players at the bottom of that ladder get relatively very little.

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don't think this characterization is at all accurate. The union is trying to win numerous gains for the youngest and least paid of their membership: they've asked for a substantial raise in minimum salary to levels commensurate with the three other major sports; they tried to get two-year players paid by having arbitration encompass all of them instead of 22% of them; they've been trying to get a substantial pre-arb bonus pool in place so young players working on minimum can earn extra dough through performance incentive, whereas before they had nothing like that; they tried to move free agency eligibility from six years to five. I also didn't see any asks that tried to get the "1%" class paid even more at all, let alone at the expense of the 99% of the membership.

It's the current system that has created the situation resulting in the "1%" class, while players at the bottom of that ladder get relatively very little.

Well, if they are pushing hard for more than the tax level increase more power to them but it’s still the tax that’s being reported as a major sticking pt. 

[CMRivdogs]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

what we need to do is get rid of gambling and fantasy baseball and return the game to its purity!  only people who love baseball and are willing to sit through 4 hour games need apply for tickets.

that will definitely solve baseball's problems.

I played fantasy baseball for a number of years. TBH it took me out of my cocoon of only knowing about the team(s) I rooted for or the league they were involved in. That's counting both APBA or Strat and a few years in a yahoo league. No money involved but it kept me entertained. 

[Tigermojo]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

I play fantasy baseball.  I am just pointing out that it's not as regional as people are saying here.  I actually don't think young people follow sports at all the way we used to follow it. There is a lot less sitting there and watching games. They'll be jumping around social media and somebody tells them about an exciting play and they will go pull up the highlight and check it out.  Then they'll go do something else.  

At their age I was cutting box scores out of the newspaper so I could look at a whole season's worth.

[Tiger337]

2 minutes ago, Tigermojo said:

At their age I was cutting box scores out of the newspaper so I could look at a whole season's worth.

I listened to games on the radio and made my own box scores and kept track of Tigers statistics as best as I could until TSN came at the end of the week.  If I couldn't listen to the game because it was a day game or there was too much static, I would cut the boxscores out of the paper if they had them.  

Edited March 2, 2022 by Tiger337

[oblong]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

I play fantasy baseball.  I am just pointing out that it's not as regional as people are saying here.  I actually don't think young people follow sports at all the way we used to follow it. There is a lot less sitting there and watching games. They'll be jumping around social media and somebody tells them about an exciting play and they will go pull up the highlight and check it out.  Then they'll go do something else.  

That’s exactly how my 21 year old does it. Only big games like UM/OSU gets his attention full time.  

[RandyMarsh]

I usually have whatever game I'm watching on the TV while spending most of my time on my laptop or phone. There's so much downtime in all sports that I find I end up paying more attention to what I'm doing on the cpu then the game.

I never used to be that way until like 10 or so years ago,  I blame smartphones for killing my attention span, any time there's a break in the action now Im on Twitter, posting in the game day threads on here or watching something on YouTube. 

[casimir]

6 hours ago, buddha said:

they reduced the time between innings for advertisements a few years ago.  why would they do that if it were all about immediate cash all the time?

the nfl did the same thing.

this has zero to do with gamblers. they still need to make the product better if they want people to watch it.  gamblers will find ways to bet no matter whether there is 15 seconds between pitches or 17 seconds between pitches.  

look, i dont "trust" things that mlb says just like i dont "trust" things anyone says that are just PR moves, and they ARE concerned first and foremost with the money.  THEYRE A BUSINESS!  OF COURSE THE ARE!

but one of the things about a moneymaking business is presenting a product people will buy.  if people are stopping buying your product, then you try to fix it.  every sport has done this except baseball (largely because management and ownership cannot get along for all sorts of reasons).  i applaud them for finally trying something, now lets see if they will actually force the players to do it?

What amount of time was reduced during commercials?  And clearly they didn’t do the same for the playoff games, especially the World Series.

I guess good for them for doing that much.  There’s not one magic aha that is going to reduce time and improve game flow.  Pitch clocks, keeping batters in the box, deadening the ball and keeping it in play.  Does the IF really need to throw the ball around after an out?

I think somewheres in here it was mentioned that umps could try enforcing the rules and just start calling balls and strikes if guys aren’t ready.  But would MLB back them for doing so?

[RandyMarsh]

Speaking of sporting games dragging on, somebody on twitter timed the actual time of the final 1 minute of game time of the MSU/Purdue game on Saturday and it was over 19 minutes. Talk about a sport that drags on.  

[casimir]

A question for some of you old goats that remember the 1981 strike.  I see on baseball reference that the Tigers played June 11 and then not again until August 10.  How did the restart work?  Did teams have minicamps after the CBA was agreed to?  I scanned the first few box scores after the restart, and it looked like SPs were throwing 5 or 6 innings (except for the one game where Schatzeder couldn’t get out of the the first without giving up a six pack).  Morris pitched against Steib.  It seems like they always faced each other when I was a kid.

[casimir]

5 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Speaking of sporting games dragging on, somebody on twitter timed the actual time of the final 1 minute of game time of the MSU/Purdue game on Saturday and it was over 19 minutes. Talk about a sport that drags on.  

Yes, ends of close basketball games have gotten ridiculous.

Hockey is the sport for end of close games.

[buddha]

12 minutes ago, casimir said:

What amount of time was reduced during commercials?  And clearly they didn’t do the same for the playoff games, especially the World Series.

I guess good for them for doing that much.  There’s not one magic aha that is going to reduce time and improve game flow.  Pitch clocks, keeping batters in the box, deadening the ball and keeping it in play.  Does the IF really need to throw the ball around after an out?

I think somewheres in here it was mentioned that umps could try enforcing the rules and just start calling balls and strikes if guys aren’t ready.  But would MLB back them for doing so?

 

[casimir]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

 

Ok, so just the in between innings stuff has been reduced by 18 half innings * 20 seconds per = 6 minutes at the very least.  I still maintain that the during inning “action” is where the bang for the buck is.

[buddha]

1 minute ago, casimir said:

Ok, so just the in between innings stuff has been reduced by 18 half innings * 20 seconds per = 6 minutes at the very least.  I still maintain that the during inning “action” is where the bang for the buck is.

me too, and they tried some stuff there too.  

but the real driver is the time between pitches.  keep em in the box and make them throw within 15 seconds and the game speeds up dramatically.

the average time in the 70s was 2 hr 30 mins.  the average games now are well over 3 hours.

[casimir]

4 minutes ago, buddha said:

me too, and they tried some stuff there too.  

but the real driver is the time between pitches.  keep em in the box and make them throw within 15 seconds and the game speeds up dramatically.

the average time in the 70s was 2 hr 30 mins.  the average games now are well over 3 hours.

I’d like to know what pitch counts were back then.  There certainly wasn’t the reliever merry go round like there is today.

[chasfh]

4 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Well, if they are pushing hard for more than the tax level increase more power to them but it’s still the tax that’s being reported as a major sticking pt. 

Because it's a de facto salary cap, CBT is the key to future player earnings for the whole sport.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

What amount of time was reduced during commercials?  And clearly they didn’t do the same for the playoff games, especially the World Series.

I guess good for them for doing that much.  There’s not one magic aha that is going to reduce time and improve game flow.  Pitch clocks, keeping batters in the box, deadening the ball and keeping it in play.  Does the IF really need to throw the ball around after an out?

I think somewheres in here it was mentioned that umps could try enforcing the rules and just start calling balls and strikes if guys aren’t ready.  But would MLB back them for doing so?

Deadening the ball to 1980s levels would speed up the game.

I'm starting to think Baseball will never seriously speed up the game. Manfred gave away the whole game when he relayed the comment Adam Silver made to him, about gamblers using down time to place their bets. More downtime, more bets, more revenue for Baseball, and especially sweet because the players can't touch it.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Because it's a de facto salary cap, CBT is the key to future player earnings for the whole sport.

I still think it's a dumb hill to die on, get changes in structure as your big gets, the cap is just a number that is inflatable later when you have more of the foundation of a better deal. It still only affects a few teams, if they they think it is the future earnings of the whole sport, they don't do math very well. If this were the NFL and most teams were near or at or trying to play to the limit of the cap it would matter, but more than half the teams in the majors weren't even within $100 million of it last season. How is raising the limit maybe another $20million for only 4 or 5 teams  going to close any of that $100 million gap for those 16 teams? If you're going die on a hill for revenue, at least do it for something real like a % split - NFL/NBA style.

I'd more believe the owners are playing the union - crying all these big crocodile tears about not wanting to give in on the lux tax just so in the end they can give that away, keep everything else and keep laughing among themselves at how they took the union again.

Edited March 3, 2022 by gehringer_2

[SoCalTiger]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

I still think it's a dumb hill to die on, get changes in structure as your big gets, the cap is just a number that is inflatable later when you have more of the foundation of a better deal. It still only affects a few teams, if they they think it is the future earnings of the whole sport, they don't do math very well. If this were the NFL and most teams were near or at or trying to play to the limit of the cap it would matter, but more than half the teams in the majors weren't even within $100 million of it last season. How is raising the limit maybe another $20million for only 4 or 5 teams  going to close any of that $100 million gap for those 16 teams? If you're going die on a hill for revenue, at least do it for something real like a % split - NFL/NBA style.

I'd more believe the owners are playing the union - crying all these big crocodile tears about not wanting to give in on the lux tax just so in the end they can give that away, keep everything else and keep laughing among themselves at how they took the union again.

I don't understand it either. I mean nobody is forcing you to have 240 million payrolls.It seems to me the Union should agree to cap if they can get a high floor requirement that HAS to be met.

[Tiger337]

4 hours ago, casimir said:

A question for some of you old goats that remember the 1981 strike.  I see on baseball reference that the Tigers played June 11 and then not again until August 10.  How did the restart work?  Did teams have minicamps after the CBA was agreed to?  I scanned the first few box scores after the restart, and it looked like SPs were throwing 5 or 6 innings (except for the one game where Schatzeder couldn’t get out of the the first without giving up a six pack).  Morris pitched against Steib.  It seems like they always faced each other when I was a kid.

I think they spent about a week getting ready.  I know the first game they played was the all-star game and I remember Joe Garagiola getting a little too excited about baseball being back.