LOCKOUT '22: When will we see baseball again?

[buddha]

3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I still think it's a dumb hill to die on, get changes in structure as your big gets, the cap is just a number that is inflatable later when you have more of the foundation of a better deal. It still only affects a few teams, if they they think it is the future earnings of the whole sport, they don't do math very well. If this were the NFL and most teams were near or at or trying to play to the limit of the cap it would matter, but more than half the teams in the majors weren't even within $100 million of it last season. How is raising the limit maybe another $20million for only 4 or 5 teams  going to close any of that $100 million gap for those 16 teams? If you're going die on a hill for revenue, at least do it for something real like a % split - NFL/NBA style.

I'd more believe the owners are playing the union - crying all these big crocodile tears about not wanting to give in on the lux tax just so in the end they can give that away, keep everything else and keep laughing among themselves at how they took the union again.

agree to a cap with a floor and you get a % of revenues.  like other sports do it.

but if they do that they will give up 10 year 360 million contracts that 1% of their membership gets so they wont do it.

[casimir]

8 hours ago, chasfh said:

Deadening the ball to 1980s levels would speed up the game.

I'm starting to think Baseball will never seriously speed up the game. Manfred gave away the whole game when he relayed the comment Adam Silver made to him, about gamblers using down time to place their bets. More downtime, more bets, more revenue for Baseball, and especially sweet because the players can't touch it.

Completely agree with the gambling revenue.

[casimir]

5 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I think they spent about a week getting ready.  I know the first game they played was the all-star game and I remember Joe Garagiola getting a little too excited about baseball being back.  

OK, I guess I do remember hearing the all star game was the first game played after the strike.

So a week to get ready, but they already had been playing for 3 months.  Not the same situation as we are in now as these guys haven't even been in spring training.

[casimir]

4 hours ago, buddha said:

but if they do that they will give up 10 year 360 million contracts that 1% of their membership gets so they wont do it.

If I were to apply the minimum baseball salary (what is it, $550K?) to the minimum wage at a union workplace where $22/hour is the floor, the top wage earning at the union shop (if you want to use $36M as your ceiling) is $1,440/hour.  It's tough to wrap my head around that.  Yes, supply and demand and all of that so a professional sports union is not comparable to the UAW or something like that.

Here is something else that I struggle with.  Changing/inserting different contract language/clauses in between a proposal and a vote.  What the hell happened there?

[Longgone]

Why haven't the players countered? What are they waiting for?

[oblong]

11 minutes ago, Longgone said:

Why haven't the players countered? What are they waiting for?

because the owners set a deadline and said that was their "final" offer.  Supposedly they are meeting again today.

[Longgone]

Just now, oblong said:

because the owners set a deadline and said that was their "final" offer.  Supposedly they are meeting again today.

Doesn't matter what they said. Owners made the last offer and made some concessions, it's the players turn, that's what bargaining in good faith is all about. Clock's ticking, keep pushing.

[oblong]

18 minutes ago, Longgone said:

Doesn't matter what they said. Owners made the last offer and made some concessions, it's the players turn, that's what bargaining in good faith is all about. Clock's ticking, keep pushing.

are you aware they were meeting for like 48 hours straight through Monday evening?  They took a break and are regrouping on strategy.  The owners made a big fuss over their deadline and had a press conference and everything.   

[casimir]

I would think both sides needed a break from each other, especially with how things fell apart earlier this week.

[chasfh]

Smilin’ Rob is having a good time with all this. Aren’t you?

 

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

I still think it's a dumb hill to die on, get changes in structure as your big gets, the cap is just a number that is inflatable later when you have more of the foundation of a better deal. It still only affects a few teams, if they they think it is the future earnings of the whole sport, they don't do math very well. If this were the NFL and most teams were near or at or trying to play to the limit of the cap it would matter, but more than half the teams in the majors weren't even within $100 million of it last season. How is raising the limit maybe another $20million for only 4 or 5 teams  going to close any of that $100 million gap for those 16 teams? If you're going die on a hill for revenue, at least do it for something real like a % split - NFL/NBA style.

I'd more believe the owners are playing the union - crying all these big crocodile tears about not wanting to give in on the lux tax just so in the end they can give that away, keep everything else and keep laughing among themselves at how they took the union again.

It’s true that most teams won’t come close to sniffing the CBT payroll limits. The CBT isn’t there to constrain them. They’re already in the fold. The point is to constrain everyone so that the big billionaires do not end up dragging the whole market for players upward, even for the little billionaires. It’s the old “stop me before I spend again” gambit. Baseball will move on literally every other point before they cave on the lux tax. It’s the Players’ white whale, and for good reason. It sets the entire market up and down the scale, and it is the biggest reason overall player comp immediately became suppressed with the last CBA.

I’d like to think a salary cap coupled with a floor would be a good solution, but the Pittsburghs and Clevelands and Baltimores of the Game will never go for it because that might force them to double or triple their current payroll, depending on what number they might land on. They want nothing to do with that, and their vote counts just as much as the Yankees and Dodgers and Mets.

 

 

 

[oblong]

The genius Ryan Ermani on Fox2 just now is explaining to the other two people that this all boils down to minimum salary.  that's the big holdup in his point of view.  This is their 9 am chit chat show where they just bullshit their way through the hour.  So now a bunch of non sports fans are watching this and thinking there's no baseball because of $50,000 in minimum salary.  He didn't bring up any of the other issues.

 

 

[buddha]

rob manfred is not allowed to smile because he is an evil chariacture of a person.  how dare he smile when isaac paredes barely has enough money to eat?

[buddha]

1 hour ago, Longgone said:

Why haven't the players countered? What are they waiting for?

rob manfred didnt allow them to counter because he is evil.  EVIL!

[RatkoVarda]

the salary cap (that's what the luxury tax is) is preventing the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and a few other big spending teams from being the usual spending ice breakers, constantly breaking new ground with total payroll and AAV for contracts.

MLBPA wants that again, because they think that high spending teams drag everyone forward. at lest that what I think they think.

unclear if they can go back to that situation again, as teams have certainly gotten smarter about long deals for  verternas and for the middle class.

the core problem is young players and the middle class are not sharing in the financial growth of the league.

 

 

[casimir]

36 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Smilin’ Rob is having a good time with all this. Aren’t you?

 

 

7 minutes ago, buddha said:

rob manfred is not allowed to smile because he is an evil chariacture of a person.  how dare he smile when isaac paredes barely has enough money to eat?

Still shots without context of the part of the discussion should come with a ton of salt.

That said, Manfred does have a very punchable face.

[buddha]

13 minutes ago, casimir said:

 

Still shots without context of the part of the discussion should come with a ton of salt.

That said, Manfred does have a very punchable face.

oh no casimir, he's pure evil for not wearing a hairshirt and crying at the INJUSTICE that he has caused all of us.  he is hitler.

[chasfh]

19 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

the salary cap (that's what the luxury tax is) is preventing the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and a few other big spending teams from being the usual spending ice breakers, constantly breaking new ground with total payroll and AAV for contracts.

MLBPA wants that again, because they think that high spending teams drag everyone forward. at lest that what I think they think.

unclear if they can go back to that situation again, as teams have certainly gotten smarter about long deals for  verternas and for the middle class.

the core problem is young players and the middle class are not sharing in the financial growth of the league.

 

 

It's not just Players who think a raised CBT will drag salaries up across the board. Baseball thinks it wil, too. That's why they are fighting it tooth and nail.

It's true that teams have used analytics to be smarter about signing cheap young players who project to be just as good as expensive experienced players, but if that were the main reason they wouldn't feel they have to fight to maintain CBT where it is.

[chasfh]

21 minutes ago, casimir said:

 

Still shots without context of the part of the discussion should come with a ton of salt.

That said, Manfred does have a very punchable face.

A smart public-facing executive would know when to smile publicly and when not to, and would certainly know that a press conference announcing the cancellation of games is clearly a time not to publicly smile.

Out of context or not, Manfred is rightfully taking a big hit for it.

[Tiger337]

8 minutes ago, chasfh said:

A smart public-facing executive would know when to smile publicly and when not to, and would certainly know that a press conference announcing the cancellation of games is clearly a time not to publicly smile.

Out of context or not, Manfred is rightfully taking a big hit for it.

He couldn't help himself.  It was a spontaneous smile.  It's just who he is.  

[chasfh]

17 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

He couldn't help himself.  It was a spontaneous smile.  It's just who he is.  

This is a funny post, but it is seriously a bad look for him and the league. If Rob Manfred truly can't help himself, he should not be facing the public.

[casimir]

Its somewhat amusing to hear that there's still time to sign a deal, start a week late, and just make up the first week somewheres along the line with doubleheaders, just as simple as that.  The Tigers were supposed to play in Seattle (4 games) and Oakland (3 games).  Traveling out there for doubleheaders on single days ought to be a treat, or, more realistically, there will be rescheduling gymnastics that will have domino effects on other series throughout the season. 

[Tenacious D]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

The genius Ryan Ermani on Fox2 just now is explaining to the other two people that this all boils down to minimum salary.  that's the big holdup in his point of view.  This is their 9 am chit chat show where they just bullshit their way through the hour.  So now a bunch of non sports fans are watching this and thinking there's no baseball because of $50,000 in minimum salary.  He didn't bring up any of the other issues.

 

 

that's your fault for watching those idiotic local "news" shows.  I just hope the damage done to your IQ is not irreparable.

 

[buddha]

the negotiators are meeting again.

one can only hope that they are aware of how important their mission is to the world and that none of them are smiling.

[Tiger337]

You won't catch Tony Clark smiling.  

1 minute ago, buddha said:

the negotiators are meeting again.

one can only hope that they are aware of how important their mission is to the world and that none of them are smiling.