LOCKOUT '22: When will we see baseball again?

[Useful Idiot]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

 

and all this talk of punishing owners for their teams losing is funny.  why dont you all just root for a different team if you dont like what yours is doing?  lol.

Why not both?...win-win.⚕️

[Useful Idiot]

For team owners having a significant source of income OTHER than the team itself (most do, so it seems), "Winning" is often not necessarily  their highest priority

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-billionaire-playbook-how-sports-owners-use-their-teams-to-avoid-millions-in-taxes

I posit that for some team owners who have learned how to pocket revenue sharing payments while simultaneously writing-off losses.....winning might never be a first priority.

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Yes, getting one of the top 8 picks for five years in a row should make a team get better.  

You are assuming that the Tigers will get unlucky in the lottery.   Did you ever think that they might finish with the eighth worst record and then WIN the lottery?  Detroit sports fans are great (at least the Tigers fans are!), but they are very pessimistic.  

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, Useful Idiot said:

For team owners having a significant source of income OTHER than the team itself (most do, so it seems), "Winning" is often not necessarily  their highest priority

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-billionaire-playbook-how-sports-owners-use-their-teams-to-avoid-millions-in-taxes

Ordinarily, the hammer would come because if you depreciate and asset and then sell it for more than its depreciated value, you get the tax hammer then, but with a sports franchise, the escape valve is just hold it until you die, then put it into a trust with your kid(s) as managing trustees.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Longgone said:

I believe that is a baseless assumption.

You are entitled to your naive opinion. 😉

[Longgone]

13 minutes ago, chasfh said:

You are entitled to your naive opinion. 😉

Touche, my friend

[Useful Idiot]

22 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Ordinarily, the hammer would come because if you depreciate and asset and then sell it for more than its depreciated value, you get the tax hammer then,

Beating the IRS might be more rewarding than beating the Yankees, for certain A-type personalities.

[casimir]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Another thing I wouldn't mind seeing is for the draft to be based on team records through the trade deadline.  That would help rid the perception that teams are tanking late in the season.    

That’s an interesting idea.

[casimir]

On 2/4/2022 at 7:52 AM, Longgone said:

Punishing someone for losing is the antithesis of a draft. Mixing the two concepts is absurd.

Well, that’d be perfect for the sport that allows a DH in one league but not the other.

[casimir]

50 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Ah yes, the sport where one lottery can significantly change the fortunes of a franchise in very short order.

By the way, the Pistons still stink.

[chasfh]

5 hours ago, casimir said:

Ah yes, the sport where one lottery can significantly change the fortunes of a franchise in very short order.

By the way, the Pistons still stink.

Maybe this is the year the PIstons end up with the worst record and end up getting the 14th pick in the lottery.

[Jim Cowan]

The biggest lottery ripoff that I can think of happened to the Buffalo Sabres who finished last, not by much, the year that Conor McDavid was in the draft.  The Sabres had not tanked, they were not historically bad and in fact had improved over their previous season.  But Edmonton, who was third worst, won the lottery and took McDavid.  The Sabres picked second and had to settle for Jack Eichel.  Eichel isn't even on the same planet as McDavid.

[Tigermojo]

One thing not being factored into to this discussion is injuries. The Tigers invested a significant amount of money into Zimmerman for example and received nothing in return. Should teams who try to be competitive but lose multiple starters to injuries be punished?

[casimir]

10 hours ago, chasfh said:

Maybe this is the year the PIstons end up with the worst record and end up getting the 14th pick in the lottery.

Not possible to occur the way the NBA lottery is set up, unless they happen to trade out of their lottery spot and into 14th.

A few years ago, the NBA had concocted the idea of taking all current 30 teams and assigning draft spots based on a 30 year cycle.  Every team would be assigned to every 1-30 slot.  The Pistons could have 14 one season, 7 the next, 29, 16, 4, etc,... as an example, with no regards to the previous season's record.

Edited February 6, 2022 by casimir

[casimir]

10 minutes ago, Tigermojo said:

One thing not being factored into to this discussion is injuries. The Tigers invested a significant amount of money into Zimmerman for example and received nothing in return. Should teams who try to be competitive but lose multiple starters to injuries be punished?

I think the Tigers' suckiness goes beyond Zimmermann.  I think his situation and the contract being a strikeout was a contributing factor.

I kind of wonder what the Tigers would have done had Verlander not been traded with 16 seconds left on the clock.  If he had remained with the team for the rest of 2017, do the Tigers try to retool for a playoff run in 2018?

[alex]

1 hour ago, Tigermojo said:

One thing not being factored into to this discussion is injuries...

That is often overlooked, downplayed and yet VERY much a factor in sports and performance.

[alex]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

I think the Tigers' suckiness goes beyond Zimmermann.  I think his situation and the contract being a strikeout was a contributing factor.

I kind of wonder what the Tigers would have done had Verlander not been traded with 16 seconds left on the clock.  If he had remained with the team for the rest of 2017, do the Tigers try to retool for a playoff run in 2018?

IMHO, it seemed at that 'time' the JV trade was needed on all Fronts (JV, Tigs, Houston,... ). However, that does not rule out a return perhaps some day as well...

[1776]

Verlander won’t be a free agent again until he is 41 years of age. Unless he has Wainwright type DNA, I don’t think he’ll be a pitcher you bank on, literally or figuratively. 
It always pissed me off they were so reckless with bad contracts that it cost them Verlander in the end. And the trade was handled like garbage. Oh, and they don’t have anything to show for it. 

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, 1776 said:

Verlander won’t be a free agent again until he is 41 years of age. Unless he has Wainwright type DNA, I don’t think he’ll be a pitcher you bank on, literally or figuratively. 
It always pissed me off they were so reckless with bad contracts that it cost them Verlander in the end. And the trade was handled like garbage. Oh, and they don’t have anything to show for it. 

I don't think Verlander was dropped because of bad contracts.   They easily could have kept him and still had a very reasonable budget.  I liked almost none of their trades during the re-build.  The re-build seemed to be mostly dumping salaries for second and third tier prospects and collecting high draft picks.  

Edited February 6, 2022 by Tiger337

[Motor City Sonics]

21 hours ago, chasfh said:

Adam Silver looks like an alien.  

[chasfh]

4 hours ago, casimir said:

Not possible to occur the way the NBA lottery is set up, unless they happen to trade out of their lottery spot and into 14th.

OK, thanks.

What I meant to put across is, maybe this is the year the PIstons finish with the worst record and end up getting whatever the worst pick a lottery team can end up with.

[Jim Cowan]

Without the injury to Rogers he might have been a top-third catcher for the next few years, which I would have considered to be a decent return for Verlander at the time.  The JD trade didn't make any sense though, there was no market for righthanded power, Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion proved that during the previous off season.  Besides, everybody knew that Dombrowski wasn't going to let anyone else sign JD the following winter, so no one would give up anything of value for a half-year rental.  That being the case, it would have been smarter to just keep him for the rest of the year and let the fans enjoy him. 

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

Without the injury to Rogers he might have been a top-third catcher for the next few years, which I would have considered to be a decent return for Verlander at the time.  The JD trade didn't make any sense though, there was no market for righthanded power, Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion proved that during the previous off season.  Besides, everybody knew that Dombrowski wasn't going to let anyone else sign JD the following winter, so no one would give up anything of value for a half-year rental.  That being the case, it would have been smarter to just keep him for the rest of the year and let the fans enjoy him. 

But then Ilitch would have had to pay him millions.

[casimir]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

OK, thanks.

What I meant to put across is, maybe this is the year the PIstons finish with the worst record and end up getting whatever the worst pick a lottery team can end up with.

Oh, it’s possible.  The worst league record falls either 1st through 4th via lottery (percentage of permutations is 14% for 1st down to 12% for 4th).  It’s a 47.9% chance that the worst team falls out of the lottery to 5th.

Maybe there is something with the NBA draft that MLB could use, I don’t know.  Roster building in basketball is just so different than baseball.

[Jim Cowan]

Just now, chasfh said:

But then Ilitch would have had to pay him millions.

Possibly.  I forget how much he was making but half a year's pay might have been around $10 million.  But all they were ever going to get in exchange was garbage, Avila shouldn't be criticized for the return on the trade if Ilitch wanted to dump the contract.