LOCKOUT '22: When will we see baseball again?

[oblong]

There will be some who swear to never go back, the same ones who burn Nike jerseys and whatnot.  But a nice summer Friday or Saturday evening in July will have Comerica Park packed.  And the winning teams will have fans back in those towns to a higher degree.

I really buy into the theory proposed by one of the writers that the owners realized they don't need April games to be profitable.  I wonder if you do the math are they even profitable during that time?  The games seem more like a chore to get through.  Kids in school, barely anybody at the park during the week, yet they still have almost as much cost to even play a game. 

[RandyMarsh]

Aside from the steroids I think MLB also benefited by the NBA lockout and Jordan's 2nd retirement. NBA ratings and interest took a nosedive after the 98 season due to those two things.

Yeah it's true that the NBA only runs directly with MLB for a few months but I think the reasons I mentioned helped keep the fans that got back into baseball from the HR chase.

[buddha]

2 minutes ago, oblong said:

There will be some who swear to never go back, the same ones who burn Nike jerseys and whatnot.  But a nice summer Friday or Saturday evening in July will have Comerica Park packed.  And the winning teams will have fans back in those towns to a higher degree.

I really buy into the theory proposed by one of the writers that the owners realized they don't need April games to be profitable.  I wonder if you do the math are they even profitable during that time?  The games seem more like a chore to get through.  Kids in school, barely anybody at the park during the week, yet they still have almost as much cost to even play a game. 

especially night games in april.  freezing out there.

[buddha]

1 minute ago, RandyMarsh said:

Aside from the steroids I think MLB also benefited by the NBA lockout and Jordan's 2nd retirement. NBA ratings and interest took a nosedive after the 98 season due to those two things.

Yeah it's true that the NBA only runs directly with MLB for a few months but I think the reasons I mentioned helped keep the fans that got back into baseball from the HR chase.

the fans came back to the nba after a lockout???  no way!!!!

[oblong]

1 minute ago, buddha said:

especially night games in april.  freezing out there.

THey don't play night games here until late April now and even then they moved the times up to 6:40.   Even a decent 65 degree day in May will mean it's 40 by 8 pm.  

Also throw in the NHL and NBA playoffs for sports fans and does anybody really watch baseball in April beyond hard core people?  

[RandyMarsh]

Just now, buddha said:

the fans came back to the nba after a lockout???  no way!!!!

It did take a couple years though if memory serves me right but I do think the numbers being down  was more due to Jordan retiring and the Bulls super team dissolving than people leaving due to the lockout. 

[casimir]

48 minutes ago, buddha said:

i doubt they lose much for long.  again, this is a temporary labor situation.  people get emotional and start talking about the damage to the game and that fans wont come back, yadda yadda yadda.  tjat's clickbait anf sports radio call in topics.  the fans have always come back.  

there are much larger issues with the game itself and the pace of play that are more problematic to continue the game's popularity.  management is trying to tweak that.  to me, that is the more important aspect of these negotiations, not the money.  the money will eventually work itself out.

the fact that the players have any say on that is ridiculous, and that's what's holding up meaningful changes being made.  they use it as a bargaining chip to get a few more scheckles out of the owners.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the point, but are you suggesting that is the crux of the issue at hand?  Or is this aspect of the CBA the most important to you>

[buddha]

3 minutes ago, casimir said:

Maybe I am misunderstanding the point, but are you suggesting that is the crux of the issue at hand?  Or is this aspect of the CBA the most important to you>

i'm saying that's the most important issue to the game itself, in my opinion.

the most important issue in the negotiations to the owners and players is money.  its always money.

[casimir]

19 minutes ago, buddha said:

i'm saying that's the most important issue to the game itself, in my opinion.

the most important issue in the negotiations to the owners and players is money.  its always money.

I agree with you from a fan's perspective that the most important issue is the flow of the game.  They could increase their hardcore base of fans and pick up new casual fans by knocking games down to 2 1/2 hours.  Somebody posted a tweet from Joc Pederson a few pages ago and he was lamenting 7 inning games.  Hey, get your ass into the batter's box and get ready to hit!

I wonder, however, with MLB seemingly noticing the revenue opportunity with gambling relatively recently, has it put the game flow issue on the back burner?  They tried a pitch clock in the minors (definitely AAA) a few seasons ago, and we're still waiting on that to bubble up to the majors.  Heck, I don't even know if they used it in AAA last season.

[casimir]

April in the T, Morans.

• Toledo Mud Hens
• Toledo Walleye
• University of Toledo basketball (Final Four, I'm calling my shot right here, right now)

Who's with me?

[Tiger337]

Just now, casimir said:

I wonder, however, with MLB seemingly noticing the revenue opportunity with gambling relatively recently, has it put the game flow issue on the back burner?  

longer games = more opportunities to place bets.  

[buddha]

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

longer games = more opportunities to place bets.  

then why are they actively trying to shorten games?

[casimir]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

then why are they actively trying to shorten games?

Are they really trying to do that, or are they just trying to put up the appearance of it?

[buddha]

10 minutes ago, casimir said:

I agree with you from a fan's perspective that the most important issue is the flow of the game.  They could increase their hardcore base of fans and pick up new casual fans by knocking games down to 2 1/2 hours.  Somebody posted a tweet from Joc Pederson a few pages ago and he was lamenting 7 inning games.  Hey, get your ass into the batter's box and get ready to hit!

I wonder, however, with MLB seemingly noticing the revenue opportunity with gambling relatively recently, has it put the game flow issue on the back burner?  They tried a pitch clock in the minors (definitely AAA) a few seasons ago, and we're still waiting on that to bubble up to the majors.  Heck, I don't even know if they used it in AAA last season.

why do you say they've "noticed the revenue possibility with gambling relatively recently"?  gambling was illegal outside of nevada and reservations until relatively recently.  since the supreme court effectively allowed everyone to legalize it ALL the sports have formed partnerships with gambling facilities (as all sports all over the world have done since time immemorial.)

its not like they never noticed this until recently, its that they werent legally allowed to do it until recently.

and i dont see how that put anything on the back burner.  they tried multiple things to speed the game up in the last two years in the minors and then proposed three of those changes in this collective bargaining session.  how is that putting it on the back burner?

they have to bargain that stuff with the players, i guess.  that seems weird to me, but maybe its in their agreement?  that said, theyre trying to do it, im not sure why you think that puts it on the back burner?

[buddha]

2 minutes ago, casimir said:

Are they really trying to do that, or are they just trying to put up the appearance of it?

they proposed three changes to the union.

they brought theo epstein in to try multiple changes in the minors and now they are trying to implement those in the pros.  

[buddha]

the roadblock against speeding up the game are the managers and the players, not the league itself.

managers are figuring out ways to maximoze their pitcher's effectiveness, which means more pitching changes every game.  long ago, baseball teams figured out that the most efficient way to score runs is to take pitches, tire out the pitchers, walk, and then hit home runs.  that leads to long long games.  

but THE biggest reason games take longet is the time between pitches.  and that is 100% on the players, and the umpires' unwlingness to force them to pitch faster.  the league is trying to combat this with a pitch clock (which is one of the changes they presented to the union).  dont throw a pitch in 15 seconds, its a ball.  enforce the rules and the game will go faster.

 

[buddha]

cue the juiced ball crowd.

[casimir]

4 minutes ago, buddha said:

they proposed three changes to the union.

they brought theo epstein in to try multiple changes in the minors and now they are trying to implement those in the pros.  

Sure, that's fine.

Its MLB.  I'll believe it when I see it.  If speeding up the game does lead to more revenue windfalls than appeasing gamblers, then that's the direction they will steer the ship.  Their #1 priority is (acquiring as much cash from the) fans (as possible).

[buddha]

2 minutes ago, casimir said:

Sure, that's fine.

Its MLB.  I'll believe it when I see it.  If speeding up the game does lead to more revenue windfalls than appeasing gamblers, then that's the direction they will steer the ship.  Their #1 priority is (acquiring as much cash from the) fans (as possible).

they reduced the time between innings for advertisements a few years ago.  why would they do that if it were all about immediate cash all the time?

the nfl did the same thing.

this has zero to do with gamblers. they still need to make the product better if they want people to watch it.  gamblers will find ways to bet no matter whether there is 15 seconds between pitches or 17 seconds between pitches.  

look, i dont "trust" things that mlb says just like i dont "trust" things anyone says that are just PR moves, and they ARE concerned first and foremost with the money.  THEYRE A BUSINESS!  OF COURSE THE ARE!

but one of the things about a moneymaking business is presenting a product people will buy.  if people are stopping buying your product, then you try to fix it.  every sport has done this except baseball (largely because management and ownership cannot get along for all sorts of reasons).  i applaud them for finally trying something, now lets see if they will actually force the players to do it?

[Tigermojo]

2 hours ago, oblong said:

...does anybody really watch baseball in April beyond hard core people? 

I wish I didn't watch that many games last April.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Tigermojo

[RandyMarsh]

I don't think people watch much baseball anymore period outside of hardcores or cities that have teams in contention. 

[buddha]

4 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I don't think people watch much baseball anymore period outside of hardcores or cities that have teams in contention. 

its a very local sport.

i'd watch the chargers play the jets on a tuesday afternoon, but i wouldnt think about watching a baseball game i dont have a rooting interest in (dont care about anything but watching the tigers win, the cubs play, and the white sox lose).

[Tigeraholic1]

 

 

[RandyMarsh]

40 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

 

 

If he really was there's a good chance it was the Sr. Adduci's. But even Starsky and Hutch wouldn't be good enough to get to him.

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

every sport has done this except baseball (largely because management and ownership cannot get along for all sorts of reasons).  i applaud them for finally trying something, now lets see if they will actually force the players to do it?

general sympathies might be against the owners as they are evil capitalists, but the fact that it's been mostly the players standing in the way of improving the game makes it damn hard to be in their corner either.