monkeytargets39 Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 (edited) Jobe may be ready from a stuff standpoint but he’s not ready from an innings standpoint. The most he’s gone in a year as a pro is 77. i can’t see the Tigers brass putting him into the major league rotation for the start of next year. Maybe he’s the guy that is the spot starter for double headers and such. The goal next year needs to be him staying healthy and him building the arm stamina to handle a full year of ML work in 2026. We put Bonderman in the rotation full time before he was ready and it definitely seemed to stunt the development and his health. i also would expect a similar approach to Gipson-Long coming off injury. We are almost going to have to get a free agent SP this offseason even if we somehow retain Flaherty and Skubal. Edited July 24 by monkeytargets39 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 7 hours ago, Tenacious D said: He’s an interesting dude. Seems to mostly have solid AB’s. I was a fan of his in the minors so it’s nice to see him achieve some early success. And he’s the same age as a lot of dudes in AA/AAA ball. Looks like he could pop 15 dingers and steal 20-25 bases per season. Great production if he could have stayed at 2B, not as impressive in a corner OF spot. Valuable guy to have on the team to plug in where needed. Wenceel is exactly what a good DH/PH/fifth outfielder is: solid stick, adequate-enough defense. Not someone you would start out there as much as a fourth outfielder, who needs either plus stick/average D or average stick/plus D and be able to start against good teams, but someone who won’t kill you when you start him against bad teams or you have to play him out there after pinch-hitting him for someone during garbage time. So my outfield configuration as the roster currently constructed, if everyone is healthy enough, would be Riley-Meadows-Carpenter, Vierling as OF4, Wenceel as OF5. Rest or play Vierling IF/DH/PH and Wenceel in RF versus bad teams when resting Riley/Carpenter; and play Vierling in the OF and Wenceel rest of DH/PH when resting any of the outfielders vs good teams. That’s what it looks like on appear, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 23 minutes ago, monkeytargets39 said: Jobe may be ready from a stuff standpoint but he’s not ready from an innings standpoint. The most he’s gone in a year as a pro is 77. .... So he's NOT ALLOWED to pitch those innings in MLB? Your point doesn't make sense. If they want him to reach 110 innings or so this year, and he's at 42 right now... He actually IS ALLOWED to pitch the additional 70-ish innings in MLB. If they so choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 24 minutes ago, monkeytargets39 said: Jobe may be ready from a stuff standpoint but he’s not ready from an innings standpoint. The most he’s gone in a year as a pro is 77. i can’t see the Tigers brass putting him into the major league rotation for the start of next year. Maybe he’s the guy that is the spot starter for double headers and such. The goal next year needs to be him staying healthy and him building the arm stamina to handle a full year of ML work in 2026. We put Bonderman in the rotation full time before he was ready and it definitely seemed to stunt the development and his health. i also would expect a similar approach to Gipson-Long coming off injury. We are almost going to have to get a free agent SP this offseason even if we somehow retain Flaherty and Skubal. I like this in general, although if it came to it, I would bring Gipson-Long into the rotation to start 2025 as SP5 over Jobe, as I would prioritize his development behind Jobe’s. This might change, of course, if Jobe sets Florida afire like nobody else in that state next March. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 11 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: So he's NOT ALLOWED to pitch those innings in MLB? Your point doesn't make sense. If they want him to reach 110 innings or so this year, and he's at 42 right now... He actually IS ALLOWED to pitch the additional 70-ish innings in MLB. If they so choose. You are either purposely misrepresenting what was stated or you need to read it again to understand what was actually written. ☕️ No one suggested that he’s NOT ALLOWED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate7474 Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 52 minutes ago, 1776 said: You are either purposely misrepresenting what was stated or you need to read it again to understand what was actually written. ☕️ No one suggested that he’s NOT ALLOWED. No, he makes a valid point. Not having the innings is not an argument for being in the Majors or Minors. He’s either capable of getting MLB hitters out or not yet. This is even more true on the pitching side where arms tend to be injuries waiting to happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 9 minutes ago, Nate7474 said: No, he makes a valid point. Not having the innings is not an argument for being in the Majors or Minors. He’s either capable of getting MLB hitters out or not yet. This is even more true on the pitching side where arms tend to be injuries waiting to happen. Using the term, in caps no less, NOT ALLOWED, is hyperbole. No one suggested that anything was not allowed. The author of the original comment never implied anything was “not allowed.” Misleading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 (edited) 25 minutes ago, 1776 said: Using the term, in caps no less, NOT ALLOWED, is hyperbole. No one suggested that anything was not allowed. The author of the original comment never implied anything was “not allowed.” Misleading. Sorry but... 2 hours ago, monkeytargets39 said: Jobe ... he’s not ready (for MLB, my words but also matches intent) from an innings standpoint. ... This is close enough. Saying he's not ready to pitch in MLB because he hasn't pitched enough innings in one minor league season is not any different than saying he's not allowed to pitch in MLB until he has a 110+ minor league season... Because... Why? I'll state the same thing in question form: Is he NOT ALLOWED to pitch in MLB until he has a 100+ minor league inning season? Again... Why? Edited July 24 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeytargets39 Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said: So he's NOT ALLOWED to pitch those innings in MLB? Your point doesn't make sense. If they want him to reach 110 innings or so this year, and he's at 42 right now... He actually IS ALLOWED to pitch the additional 70-ish innings in MLB. If they so choose. He could. You’re just absolutely going to have to have contingency plans in place in case he hits an organization determined innings limit or he falters. Which means having additional capable starters on the roster anyway. So why not just let him continue to build up his stamina in an environment where win/loss performance of the team isn’t as important and where it’s more plausible to skip him in the rotation from time to time or cap some of his starts at 3-4 innings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeytargets39 Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 2 hours ago, chasfh said: I like this in general, although if it came to it, I would bring Gipson-Long into the rotation to start 2025 as SP5 over Jobe, as I would prioritize his development behind Jobe’s. This might change, of course, if Jobe sets Florida afire like nobody else in that state next March. Agree. And SGL is older and has the workload history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 37 minutes ago, 1776 said: Using the term, in caps no less, NOT ALLOWED, is hyperbole. No one suggested that anything was not allowed. The author of the original comment never implied anything was “not allowed.” Misleading. A MF poster engaging in hyperbole? Nawwwwwww ... that's as rare as a MF poster engaging in sarcasm ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeytargets39 Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 48 minutes ago, Nate7474 said: No, he makes a valid point. Not having the innings is not an argument for being in the Majors or Minors. He’s either capable of getting MLB hitters out or not yet. This is even more true on the pitching side where arms tend to be injuries waiting to happen. The point isn’t that he can’t get big league hitters out. It’s that you can’t take Jobes workload and jump it up 100+ innings from what he has been previously done and expect him to maintain effectiveness and health. For all I care he could come up and take Wentz spot in the bullpen right now. You just can’t at this point go into 2025 thinking he’s gonna give you 33 starts or 200 innings without running into problems all along the way that would require adequate roster strategy in place as a contingency. Id rather us go get an established and capable arm for that potential rotation spot than get 3 months of Jobe at full strength and then have to revert to Manning or Maeda if Jobe fatigues during a hypothetical playoff run. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 6 minutes ago, chasfh said: A MF poster engaging in hyperbole? Nawwwwwww ... that's as rare as a MF poster engaging in sarcasm ... Are you calling 84 a mother ****er? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 Jobe is ready to pitch in the big leagues right now. He’d be our 3rd best pitcher immediately. The innings he required can happen in the minors or majors—it doesn’t matter. Regardless, he desperately needs them—he’s thrown less than 40 so far. He would also be learning daily from the best pitching coach and pitchers in the organization. The only reasons not to promote him now are if they think he has a fragile psyche and/or service time manipulation. I wouldn’t promote him just so we can win more games this year—I’d promote him to further his development. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 (edited) 50 minutes ago, monkeytargets39 said: He could. You’re just absolutely going to have to have contingency plans in place in case he hits an organization determined innings limit or he falters. Which means having additional capable starters on the roster anyway. So why not just let him continue to build up his stamina in an environment where win/loss performance of the team isn’t as important and where it’s more plausible to skip him in the rotation from time to time or cap some of his starts at 3-4 innings. A lot of teams do that stamina thing, in MLB, by: Having him start out the season as a starter, and in August, as the innings count is getting high, switch him over to bullpen for the remainder of the season. They've also skipped starts where they can. It's been done before, and the Tigers themselves have done this a few times. So yeah, a 6th starter would most likely be needed. But that's usually the case anyways, and that doesn't change anything on the evaluation of whether a pitcher is ready for MLB or not. That's the 1st evaluation: MLB, yes or no? Innings can be managed, in multiple ways, and should NOT override an MLB-readiness decision. IMO. Edited July 24 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 37 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Are you calling 84 a mother ****er? But I'm both. A Motown Forums poster AND... The other thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 44 minutes ago, monkeytargets39 said: ... It’s that you can’t take Jobes workload and jump it up 100+ innings from what he has been previously done and expect him to maintain effectiveness and health... So a rough target this year, I'm guessing, would be about 100+ or so innings. Next year, 125-130 would be the target. Those innings can be managed. Even in MLB. It's been done before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate7474 Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 45 minutes ago, monkeytargets39 said: The point isn’t that he can’t get big league hitters out. It’s that you can’t take Jobes workload and jump it up 100+ innings from what he has been previously done and expect him to maintain effectiveness and health. For all I care he could come up and take Wentz spot in the bullpen right now. You just can’t at this point go into 2025 thinking he’s gonna give you 33 starts or 200 innings without running into problems all along the way that would require adequate roster strategy in place as a contingency. Id rather us go get an established and capable arm for that potential rotation spot than get 3 months of Jobe at full strength and then have to revert to Manning or Maeda if Jobe fatigues during a hypothetical playoff run. I agree that you can’t count on him for 200 innings and that they will need to get a veteran to fill in for the rest of those. All I’m saying is if he’s ready and the best option to get MLB hitters out then he should be in the majors. I don’t believe that the amount of innings he can safely increase should have any bearing on where they are thrown at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Nate7474 said: I agree that you can’t count on him for 200 innings and that they will need to get a veteran to fill in for the rest of those. All I’m saying is if he’s ready and the best option to get MLB hitters out then he should be in the majors. I don’t believe that the amount of innings he can safely increase should have any bearing on where they are thrown at. If a guy has a big league arm and you can only have 100 IP in a season, you give him 10 5 inning starts and then move him to the pen, or vice versa. Teams have done it in the past - it's not a novel approach. You get some performance, he gets big league experieance, learns hitters, etc. Win-Win. the only down side becomes service time issues, but as a fan I don't particularly care about that. if the kid is good and you eventually have to pay him its going to cost ~20-30M one season earlier. BFD. Edited July 24 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: Are you calling 84 a mother ****er? MF is short for MotownForums, gutterbrain. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 1 hour ago, monkeytargets39 said: Id rather us go get an established and capable arm for that potential rotation spot than get 3 months of Jobe at full strength and then have to revert to Manning or Maeda if Jobe fatigues during a hypothetical playoff run. Or worse yet, go sees Dr. Andrews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: If a guy has a big league arm and you can only have 100 IP in a season, you give him 10 5 inning starts and then move him to the pen, or vice versa. Teams have done it in the past - it's not a novel approach. You get some performance, he gets big league experieance, learns hitters, etc. Win-Win. the only down side becomes service time issues, but as a fan I don't particularly care about that. if the kid is good and you eventually have to pay him its going to cost ~20-30M one season earlier. BFD. Not the worst idea, but I would rather we ration his innings early next season, then bring him up for the second half to get that experience (assuming he does not force his way north in March, of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeytargets39 Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 (edited) To clarify my actual point here: I’m not trying to say Jobe isn’t allowed to be promoted to Detroit or that him getting innings there is a problem. Im saying that going into 2025, it would be reckless to expect Jobe to be a full fledged member of the rotation and for him to be expected to compete at a high level for a full season while needing to make a huge jump in workload. If we are talking about having him work out of the pen or as a spot starter, that’s an entirely different situation. I think we all agree that if we can have a successful trade deadline and further address needs in the offseason that we should be able to further compete for a playoff spot next year. Assuming the loss of Flaherty, we are looking at a most likely scenario of Skubal/Olson/Mize, and then the internal options of Manning/Maeda/Montero/Jobe/Gipson-Long. It’s pretty apparent that Maeda is cooked, and the org seems to have soured quite a bit on Manning being a viable option. If anyone here sees Keider Montero as a viable 4 or 5 starter on a playoff caliber team, please elaborate on why. So you have the two wild cards with Jobe and SGL. SGL has good peripherals and would be a good choice for a spot pending his health. Jobe, while clearly capable from an ability standpoint, is still very young and hasn’t gone through the workload increase to suggest that he’s going to be able to go a full season as a starter without having periods where we limit innings, skip him in the rotation, or shut him down for a time period. If we start him in the rotation and he does really well but runs out of gas midway through the year and we have to take measures to work around that—is it really beneficial to the team? All of those extra innings and starts are going to be picked up by our garbage heap of Faedo/Wentz/Manning/Maeda/etc. Would it not make more sense to get Jobe his innings across multiple levels and deploy him strategically in Detroit rather than go into the year relying on him to provide something that he may not physically be capable of? My argument for next years rotation is not that Jobe doesn’t have the ability, it’s that if we are trying to position ourselves to contend, we need to bring in at least one starter who has a strong track record of being reliable and competitive and if that means that we don’t unleash Jobe fully until 2026, then so be it. But heading into the year expecting Jobe to be a major part of the team is short-sighted. For all I care he can get innings at whatever level the organization wants to get him innings at. Just temper the expectations of him taking on a full workload at the major league level next year. Edited July 24 by monkeytargets39 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 Jackson Jobe will turn 22 on July 30th. Time flies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 Very few starters throw 200 innings anymore, Id say the new benchmark is around 150 and I think Jobe could be perfectly capable of getting close to that number next year. I don't think teams prescribe to the old line of thinking Verducci came up with where you only increase innings by 20 or so a year. If Jobe can get to 80 or 90 this year including the AFL theres no reason that he can't get to the 140-150 needed to be a regular starter in today's MLB next year. We or course are still gonna need to go get another starter or 2 from outside the org but we were gonna have to do that regardless of Jobe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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