2024 - 2025 Detroit Tigers Offseason

[chasfh]

23 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

To me the history of the episode argues that is very unilkely Hinch  would want anyone from that team/history showing up at his doorstep today, let alone one of the supposed ring leaders, and I see no way Harris would not respect that. To me that is a stronger determining factor for Bregman any analysis of whether he is a fit or will be a declining asset.

I don't know if the ringleadership would be a stronger reason, but I agree it's probably a consideration. Probably also why we tried suspiciously not hard enough to go after Correa.

[chasfh]

22 hours ago, papalawrence said:

With escalating starting pitching prices, don't you think there is a decent chance they trade him? With Jobe and Hamm coming up, I think it's at least in the back of Harris' mind

As long as the Tigers are contending for playoffs, there is exactly zero chance we trade Skubal just to get something anything for him before he walks.

[chasfh]

21 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

None of us have been a major league baseball manager, so I guess we can't comment, but I'm just saying he didn't have the respect of the players and I vew that as a negative.  I think there are managers who would have handled it better.  

I am very happy with Hinch as the Tigers manager.  I believe if the same thing happened to him in Detroit, the players would be more inclined to listen to him.  

I'm not even talking about baseball managers. I'm talking about middle managers in everyday employment situation, like in offices or factories or even academia. If you've ever been one and had your own boss go around you to work directly with your people without your approval or knowledge, you'd know what I mean.

[chasfh]

21 hours ago, TigerNation said:

He recruited Correa so this doesn't check out.

Did Hinch recruit Correa in that meeting? Do we have any report about what they discussed?

[chasfh]

21 hours ago, Timmitch55 said:

I wouldn't allow him to sign either. Would you? Harris is a smart dude. He knows that. So the Sox gave up a TON for Crochet. What would Tarik command as of right now? What teams could make that move? I love Skubal. That being said, we won't sign him. Id move him and do it now, if the package is right. And then go sign Flaherty and Buehler for what Skubal gets. And farm about 5 near ready guys

If the Tigers move Skubal at a time when the franchise and the big club are ascending, they are telling the fan base that payroll and roster machinations are more important than winning games, and that is a potentially fatal way to shoot themselves in the foot. And that goes double for, as you suggest, they do it right now.

[oblong]

I was never that caught up on what the Astros did.  I see it as a difference in degree and not principal and assume most clubs would do it if they thought of it or could.   I also agree that with high profile and expensive players and team leaders doing something with the consent of the front office that a manager is not in a position of fully controlling it.  The makeup of organizations  is different now with the staffs being so large.  Can managers set curfews, dress codes, and other rules on their own or is that org driven?   "Cheating" in baseball is a mixed bag.  It can be celebrated in some situations as cute and flamboyant but harshly treated in other situations.   

One of the greatest home runs in history was the result of something not unlike what the Astros were doing.

[chasfh]

18 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

We could have easily signed Correa, but chose Baez instead. Remember that Correa had deals killed with both SF and Mets before settling with the Twins.

We could not have easily signed Correa if our offer topped out at 10/275, because he specified in the media that his minimum he would sign for was something like 310, and ours was the first offer at the time. So the offer was designed to fail from the start.

[Tenacious D]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

We could not have easily signed Correa if our offer topped out at 10/275, because he specified in the media that his minimum he would sign for was something like 310, and ours was the first offer at the time. So the offer was designed to fail from the start.

My point is that we could have paid him.  We opted for Baez instead, likely because of affordability.  Correa became a hot potato in free agency, with two teams backing out of their agreement with him. He could have easily been a Tiger.

[Tiger337]

7 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I'm not even talking about baseball managers. I'm talking about middle managers in everyday employment situation, like in offices or factories or even academia. If you've ever been one and had your own boss go around you to work directly with your people without your approval or knowledge, you'd know what I mean.

Are baseball managers like typical middle managers?  It seems to me that baseball managers have a direct daily influence on their players which I think gives then a lot of opportunity to form strong bonds with players. 

Players also have a strong union which I think makes them as much opponents of upper management as they are employees.

[gehringer_2]

11 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Are baseball managers like typical middle managers?  It seems to me that baseball managers have a direct daily influence on their players which I think gives then a lot of opportunity to form strong bonds with players. 

 

Most likey there is as much variation in management styles for baseball managers as for any other kind. Some are probably delegators to their coaches, some are probably more hands on, some are buddies with their players, some make sure to retain distance, etc....

Which reminds me of my all time favorite "Frank and Ernest" cartoon panel (lost in an office move...😢). The boss is behind the desk, the employee is standing in front - the quote was "Remember Smithers, my door is always open... So don't wander in here by mistake."

Edited December 16, 2024 by gehringer_2

[1984Echoes]

On 12/12/2024 at 3:07 PM, roarintiger1 said:

Could a Bregman effect have similar results to what Pudge meant for the Tigers?

You guys are going to love me for this...

Because I want to go back to the early 80's Tigers again.

On 12/12/2024 at 5:31 PM, Tiger337 said:

When Pudge signed, the team was garbage.  He made them respectable.  This team is already respectable.  If they make any big moves, they will be made with the post-season in mind. 

This is correct.

And the reason I have to go back to the early 80's is... Crapload of young kids.

Different names... obviously. So who knows what this version will turn into...?

But...

The focus right now is to help these kids get better and playoff worthy. So Lee is correct: Post-season in mind. Veteran leadership, but get to the Playoffs.

And since we weren't a free agent signing team in the early 80's; I am going to look at a couple of trades.

Like the December 9th, 1981 trade for Larry Herndon. Young veteran Righty bat, on a lefty heavy team.

Bregman could be our Larry Herndon. (Better and a bit older... but same idea).

But I think he's even better than that. I think Bregman is our Chet Lemon.

Steve Kemp for Chet Lemon on November 17th, 1981. Same idea as Herndon. Veteran, righty, great defense. Even though he was traded for not a FA) and only 27...

I think Bregman would be our Chet Lemon.

Just my 2 cents...

[papalawrence]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

As long as the Tigers are contending for playoffs, there is exactly zero chance we trade Skubal just to get something anything for him before he walks.

We don't know how Harris will approach this yet. Contending never stopped the Rays. After skubal they have Greene and we don't yet know how hi Illitch will allow the payroll to grow. I hope you are correct. I want Skubal extended today. 

[gehringer_2]

Boras is really pushing the Detroit angle for Bregman and the USA Today story by Nightengale reprinted in the Freep is enough for good laugh - did you know Detroit has the inside track on Bregman because he went to school with the Tiger's bullpen catcher? Who knew?

[oblong]

A baseball manager is not really a manager in a corporate sense.  Who do the players report to?  The manager or the front office?  I'd say it's the front office.  Who in the front office?  The POBO?  The General Manager?   I'm sure there's not an org chart that includes players so it's not so easy to answer.  Who does the manager report to?  The GM or the POBO?  Or the owner?

[Tiger337]

27 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Boras is really pushing the Detroit angle for Bregman and the USA Today story by Nightengale reprinted in the Freep is enough for good laugh - did you know Detroit has the inside track on Bregman because he went to school with the Tiger's bullpen catcher? Who knew?

That makes it sound like he's using the Tigers to drive up the price.  

[IdahoBert]

Speaking of the omnipresence of cheating and how we kind of don’t care I was reminded of our much beloved Norm Cash and his alleged corked bat in 1961. He hit .361 that year and .249 the next.

[chasfh]

5 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

My point is that we could have paid him.  We opted for Baez instead, likely because of affordability.  Correa became a hot potato in free agency, with two teams backing out of their agreement with him. He could have easily been a Tiger.

Did we have the means to pay Correa? Yes, indeed we did.

Did we want to actually pay Correa? No, we did not.

So why did we offer Correa 10/275 when they knew absolutely he was going to turn it down because he was already on record with his much-higher contract minimum? I wasn't in on the discussions, so I can't say for a fact. But if I had to guess, I'd say the Tigers were trying to send some sort of message to the fans that we are on the verge of playoffs for the first time in eight years, we are serious about getting to the playoffs next year, so we are going after superstar free agents. If you want to assure yourself a good seat for next year's team, better get those season and advance ticket orders in, because they'll go fast. No, they didn't actually say those words. That's what I think they thought the offer would communicate to fans. Whether that did is subject to fair speculation either way.

The one thing they did calculate right is that the fans would blame Correa for turning down the 10/275, and that happened repeatedly right in this very forum.

It's just bad luck for the Tigers that Baez just collapsed so precipitously. Not even his greatest detractors were sure that was going to happen. But them's the breaks, and now it's Scott Harris's job to deal with the situation.

 

Edited December 16, 2024 by chasfh

[chasfh]

5 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Are baseball managers like typical middle managers?  It seems to me that baseball managers have a direct daily influence on their players which I think gives then a lot of opportunity to form strong bonds with players. 

Players also have a strong union which I think makes them as much opponents of upper management as they are employees.

The front office pays the players. There is that. And if someone from the front office wants to implement a cheating scheme to help them win games so they can all make a ****-ton of money, then if they can't get the manager to make it happen, they'll get the players to do it. That's exactly what they said in the documentary I posted! I'm not sure why all this so hard to imagine.

[chasfh]

4 hours ago, papalawrence said:

We don't know how Harris will approach this yet. Contending never stopped the Rays. After skubal they have Greene and we don't yet know how hi Illitch will allow the payroll to grow. I hope you are correct. I want Skubal extended today. 

OK, if you believe Harris wants to fate us to be the Rays at best, and I guess the Pirates at worst, then that's a subjective conclusion you have arrived at that makes sense to you, and I would never be able to just talk you out of it.

I have made the choice to assume that Harris is here to build a sustained winner and that Ilitch is on board, and there is plenty of direct and circumstantial evidence supporting that conclusion, and I will continue to believe that until he demonstrates to us otherwise. I will not engage in proactive cynicism about them. Will I look like a stupid jerk when he actually does torpedo our playoff chances to save a buck? Probably. Almost it won't take something like Harris doing that to make me look like a stupid jerk. 😁

And I want to make clear my opinion that just because Skubal won't sign an extension before he goes to free agency, that won't necessarily mean Harris is a failure because of it. I'll assess the evidence at the time, but I won't leap to that conclusion. Anyone else who wants to conclude that better come up with the evidence, or I'm coming back for an argument! 😃

 

[gehringer_2]

12 minutes ago, chasfh said:

And I want to make clear my opinion that just because Skubal won't sign an extension before he goes to free agency, that won't necessarily mean Harris is a failure because of it. I'll assess the evidence at the time, but I won't leap to that conclusion. Anyone else who wants to conclude that better come up with the evidence, or I'm coming back for an argument!

Indeed, there is very little a team can do with a player committed to going to FA other than make the best deal they can to recover value or ride it out and take the comp pick when it comes. Players and agents will always say the right things so the fans don't start booing the player whose made it clear to team management they are committed to going FA, but none of it means squat.

It's just one more thing management has to deal with. If you want to win long term, you have to do what you judge will minimize the impact of player decisions you can't control.

Edited December 16, 2024 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Indeed, there is very little a team can do with a player committed to going to FA other than make the best deal they can to recover value or ride it out and take the comp pick when it comes. Players and agents will always say the right things so the fans don't start booing the player whose made it clear to to team management they are committed to going FA, but none of it means squat.

That won't matter to some fans, though, maybe even most fans. Remember how Eduardo and his stupid agent pulled the rug out from under last year's deadline trade at literally the final hour, demanding the Dodgers add a year they refused to? It wasn't Harris's fault. There was nothing he could do about that. He couldn't make the Dodgers add the year to save his own hide or something. But Harris was assigned the blame as if he himself willed it to happen. It was nonsense. Yes, he had to take responsibility, but that's not exactly blame, is it? To say Harris made the trade fail by his hand is, in my opinion, asinine. But hey, that's the job.

[Tiger337]

46 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The front office pays the players. There is that. And if someone from the front office wants to implement a cheating scheme to help them win games so they can all make a ****-ton of money, then if they can't get the manager to make it happen, they'll get the players to do it. That's exactly what they said in the documentary I posted! I'm not sure why all this so hard to imagine.

It's easy to imagine.  It's also easy for me to imagine other outcomes.  

[chasfh]

12 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

It's easy to imagine.  It's also easy for me to imagine other outcomes.  

You don't have to imagine it, because it's documented.

[Sports_Freak]

6 hours ago, chasfh said:

If the Tigers move Skubal at a time when the franchise and the big club are ascending, they are telling the fan base that payroll and roster machinations are more important than winning games, and that is a potentially fatal way to shoot themselves in the foot. And that goes double for, as you suggest, they do it right now.

I don't agree. Skubal will be very affordable for the next 2 seasons. If they sign a couple of good FA pitchers, it will cost more. But Skubal is very valuable right now, less so as time passes. If we can get 3 or 4 quality players for him, do it. There's no way Boras will allow him to be extended when he could be looking at $30 to $35 million per year in a free agent contract. And no way the Tigers offer that kind of crazy money for his 30 starts per season. I love Skubal but, like you said, Harris wants to build a contending team for years and getting a few quality players for a pitcher who will be walking in a couple of years is the way to go.

[Timmitch55]

7 hours ago, chasfh said:

As long as the Tigers are contending for playoffs, there is exactly zero chance we trade Skubal just to get something anything for him before he walks.

Do you think we will sign him?