2024 - 2025 Detroit Tigers Offseason

[SoCalTiger]

1 hour ago, monkeytargets39 said:

The White Sox are gonna lose 140 games next year

And the Central teams that feast on them have an edge for the wild card spots.

[RatkoVarda]

Astros looking at a Arenado trade. I do not think Yankees really want Bregman who they called a cheater.

I have always thought that move moves = even more moves, so let's keep it moving!

[casimir]

On 12/12/2024 at 6:21 PM, gehringer_2 said:

I want to know more about how Savant does IF arms - esp the avg velo number. They seem to just take all throws, but if so that's a pretty meaningless number. A good fielder that comes up with the ball quickly shouldn't have to throw hard all the time, all that matters is how well can he get it there when he has to. I mean most guys don't play like Aurelio Rodriguez, who might just wait until the guy was half-way to 1st to uncork a 95mph throw over.

That’s a good point about the variety of throws involved.

[casimir]

2 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

Astros looking at a Arenado trade. I do not think Yankees really want Bregman who they called a cheater.

I have always thought that move moves = even more moves, so let's keep it moving!

I’ll be honest, there’s a part of me that doesn’t want Bregman in part because of the trash cans.  I may be wrong, but from my understanding of what is publicly known, Bregman was one of the ring leaders and ignored Hinch’s attempts (the degree of which can be debated) to stop it.  What actually happened probably isn’t completely publicly known and I’m sure my singular sentence synopsis is quite incomplete.

When Hinch signed with Detroit, I understood the apprehension from those that were against it.  Hinch was the only on field personnel that was sentenced for the activities.  No players were officially punished.  Was Hinch sufficiently charged?  There’s discussion to be had.  But none of the players were, that cannot be denied. And so that’s always been a sticking point to me with that saga.

[gehringer_2]

29 minutes ago, casimir said:

Bregman was one of the ring leaders and ignored Hinch’s attempts (the degree of which can be debated) to stop it.

If this is true you can take it to the bank Hinch isn't having him come here and I don't see any way Harris brings in a player over that kind of objection by his manager.

[ICroupier]

31 minutes ago, casimir said:

I’ll be honest, there’s a part of me that doesn’t want Bregman in part because of the trash cans.  I may be wrong, but from my understanding of what is publicly known, Bregman was one of the ring leaders and ignored Hinch’s attempts (the degree of which can be debated) to stop it.  What actually happened probably isn’t completely publicly known and I’m sure my singular sentence synopsis is quite incomplete.

When Hinch signed with Detroit, I understood the apprehension from those that were against it.  Hinch was the only on field personnel that was sentenced for the activities.  No players were officially punished.  Was Hinch sufficiently charged?  There’s discussion to be had.  But none of the players were, that cannot be denied. And so that’s always been a sticking point to me with that saga.

I don't see how a Tigers fan can be opposed to any of the Astros players involved in cheating when Hinch is our manager.

[RatkoVarda]

i understand that people are pissed off at the Astros, and that's fine

the biggest issue seems to be is that they found a successful way to cheat with technology. other teams (like the Yankees and the Red Sox) were cheating with Apple watches but no one came close to the Astros success. MLB quickly and quietly fined both teams and suspended no one.

[monkeytargets39]

I feel like Bergman’s offensive numbers would crater in Comerica vs playing in that Mickey Mouse ballpark he’s been in.

I have more faith in Vierling as a regular 3B

[papalawrence]

I don't see Harris going much, if any higher than the 6/156 Houston reportedly offered. He turns 31 in March and is showing signs of decline. His BB were way down last year.

This might be the last year they have Skubal. I would like to see them upgrade the offense now, but not sure Bregman is the way to go.

[casimir]

2 hours ago, ICroupier said:

I don't see how a Tigers fan can be opposed to any of the Astros players involved in cheating when Hinch is our manager.

How so?  I think there are varying degrees of participation in that deal and Hinch wasn’t really supportive of it (again, this is the public knowledge of it).

[casimir]

1 hour ago, monkeytargets39 said:

I feel like Bergman’s offensive numbers would crater in Comerica vs playing in that Mickey Mouse ballpark he’s been in.

I have more faith in Vierling as a regular 3B

I don’t know if I’d have more faith in Vierling as a regular 3B than Bregman.  I think Bregman’s HR numbers would go down, but I’m not sure Vierling would be the better 3B.

We all acknowledge, I think, that Bregman’s best days are probably going to be behind him.  I think he’s an upgrade over what the Tigers had at 3B last season.  The questions to me are, what’s with his career BB% dropping from an annual 12% to 6% last season and is he at an offensive plateau right now and for how lomg?

I suspect that the BB% rebounds to double digits and that 2024 was an anomaly (maybe it was contract year pressure, maybe it was Houston’s poor start, maybe some of both).

As for his OPS going forward, I’m not as sure.  It’s likely to traipse downward, but at what rate over 6 or 7 seasons?

[Motor City Sonics]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

I don’t know if I’d have more faith in Vierling as a regular 3B than Bregman.  I think Bregman’s HR numbers would go down, but I’m not sure Vierling would be the better 3B.

 

But think of the cost difference between Bregman and Vierling.     Bregman might cost you 30 mil a year and Vierling would be, what, 4 mil after arbitration.   Is Bregman THAT much better than Vierling at this point in their careers?       Bregman feels like when you get a new (or new to you) car and it's your new car and it's new and this is so new and exciting and 3 weeks later it's just your car.  

[Motor City Sonics]

If you were an A's fan how pissed would you be that they are finally TRYING now.     John Fisher is scum.    I'm not an A's fan at all, but I sympathize with their fans here.   I can;'t imagine how much it would suck for this to happen to us and how painful it would be as a fan.  

Edited December 14, 2024 by Motor City Sonics

[monkeytargets39]

Looking at Bergman’s hit chart, I don’t think it’s wild to say that he’d be a 15-18 HR guy at best if he played half his games in Comerica and he’s gonna hit less doubles because his fly balls to left aren’t gonna bounce off a short wall.  Is that what’s gonna get us to the next level for 6 years and $150-200 million?  Probably 5-10 more XBH than Vierling with worse base running?

If you wanted to put Bregman at 1B and keep Tork in Toledo or trade him for some magic beans, I feel like that would be the more impactful move….but even then there are other 1B options that are better to go after and probably cheaper.

 

Extend Riley and Skubal instead.

Edited December 15, 2024 by monkeytargets39

[Tiger337]

3 hours ago, monkeytargets39 said:

Looking at Bergman’s hit chart, I don’t think it’s wild to say that he’d be a 15-18 HR guy at best if he played half his games in Comerica and he’s gonna hit less doubles because his fly balls to left aren’t gonna bounce off a short wall.  Is that what’s gonna get us to the next level for 6 years and $150-200 million?  Probably 5-10 more XBH than Vierling with worse base running?

If you wanted to put Bregman at 1B and keep Tork in Toledo or trade him for some magic beans, I feel like that would be the more impactful move….but even then there are other 1B options that are better to go after and probably cheaper.

 

Extend Riley and Skubal instead.

I understand why people are weary of Bregman. However, I think their payroll is low enough where it's reasonable to extend Greene and Skubal and also make a significant signing.  

[ICroupier]

15 hours ago, casimir said:

How so?  I think there are varying degrees of participation in that deal and Hinch wasn’t really supportive of it (again, this is the public knowledge of it).

It's pretty simple. Hinch knew it was going on and let it continue. That's complicity from the one guy in charge of the clubhouse.

So if we're OK with the leader of the team that cheated, why would we all of a sudden draw a line on one of the players?

[chasfh]

18 hours ago, casimir said:

When Hinch signed with Detroit, I understood the apprehension from those that were against it.  Hinch was the only on field personnel that was sentenced for the activities.  No players were officially punished.  Was Hinch sufficiently charged?  There’s discussion to be had.  But none of the players were, that cannot be denied. And so that’s always been a sticking point to me with that saga.

MLB can’t market convicted cheaters.

They don’t have to think about marketing managers.

[chasfh]

17 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

i understand that people are pissed off at the Astros, and that's fine

the biggest issue seems to be is that they found a successful way to cheat with technology. other teams (like the Yankees and the Red Sox) were cheating with Apple watches but no one came close to the Astros success. MLB quickly and quietly fined both teams and suspended no one.

This is true, although also, the Yankees and the Red Sox.

[chasfh]

16 hours ago, papalawrence said:

I don't see Harris going much, if any higher than the 6/156 Houston reportedly offered. He turns 31 in March and is showing signs of decline. His BB were way down last year.

This might be the last year they have Skubal. I would like to see them upgrade the offense now, but not sure Bregman is the way to go.

They have Skubal for at least two more years.

[gehringer_2]

9 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I understand why people are weary of Bregman. However, I think their payroll is low enough where it's reasonable to extend Greene and Skubal and also make a significant signing.  

the Tigers could extend Skubal, but I  think it's near likely zero probability unless Skubal changes his agent. Boras will never let a golden goose like Skubal so anything but go to FA. They'll part company first.

Edited December 15, 2024 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

5 minutes ago, ICroupier said:

It's pretty simple. Hinch knew it was going on and let it continue. That's complicity from the one guy in charge of the clubhouse.

So if we're OK with the leader of the team that cheated, why would we all of a sudden draw a line on one of the players?

You missed all the discussion about this here.

It was firmly established in the documentary about this incident that the front office went around the manager and directly to the players to execute the scheme, and no manager could have stopped that. If you’ve ever been a middle manager and your boss went directly to your reports to do a project without your knowledge or consent, you’d know what that’s like.

[Tiger337]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

the Tigers could extend Skubal, but I  think it's near likely zero probability unless Skubal changes his agent. Boras will never let a golden goose like Skubal so anything but go to FA. They'll part company first.

I agree.

[Tiger337]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

You missed all the discussion about this here.

It was firmly established in the documentary about this incident that the front office went around the manager and directly to the players to execute the scheme, and no manager could have stopped that. If you’ve ever been a middle manager and your boss went directly to your reports to do a project without your knowledge or consent, you’d know what that’s like.

And I still don't agree.  He was the manager and he didn't have the players respect enough to get them to stop.    I don't think that would have happened to Leyland or Anderson.  I don't think anyhing like that will happen to Hinch again either.   Hinch is great now so I don't care, but I will always view the Houston incident as a bad mark on his record.

[ICroupier]

Just now, chasfh said:

You missed all the discussion about this here.

It was firmly established in the documentary about this incident that the front office went around the manager and directly to the players to execute the scheme, and no manager could have stopped that. If you’ve ever been a middle manager and your boss went directly to your reports to do a project without your knowledge or consent, you’d know what that’s like.

I didn't miss anything. 

"(Hinch) told Manfred's investigators that he was not supportive of the system, calling it 'wrong and distracting.' "

"Hinch destroyed the monitor twice, forcing it to be replaced.

However, Hinch admits he did not stop it and he did not notify players or Cora that he disapproved of it ..."

"Similarly, (Hinch) knew of and did not stop the communication of sign information from the replay room ..."

[romad1]

The more i think about the extensions for Greene and Skubal...the more I'm not sure I'd do that if I were either side.  The talent development cycle with the Tigers is getting good enough that they can actually put a MLB caliber product out with more certainty from their drafts and to a much lesser extent International signings.  

That said, the Detroit fanbase is the kind that falls in love with its stars.  It won't want to become Tampa North.  Obviously the player will get whatever they can to validate their future.  Its also probably good for the economy to have wealth transfer this way.

MLB should do more to help mid-market teams retain stars.