Edman85 Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 3 minutes ago, guy incognito said: This is a great article from a couple months back pointing out the rarely-spoken but undeniable subtext that Rose benefitted tremendously from being Cincinnati’s Great White Hope, both during his career and after the ban. https://www.newyorker.com/books/under-review/pete-rose-and-the-complicated-legacy-of-cincinnati-baseball I don't buy the thesis there at all. I grew up in the area, and yes, Rose is a cult figure (and my sanity on the subject of his scumbaggery makes me the same pariah that my doses of Pfizer makes me in those parts). But, Barry Larkin was a God there in the 90's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdahoBert Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 I wondered if anyone was talking about this when I noticed a thing on Facebook about it. When I was a kid, the thing with Rose and Ray Fosse rubbed me the wrong way so I was anti-Rose. I’m not sure now how justified my enmity was or not. I disliked Woody Hayes for the same sort of reasons. So I was not much of a fan of Rose and glad I didn’t live in southern Indiana or southern Ohio, and feel obligated to root for the Reds, and by extension, for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Edman85 said: But, Barry Larkin was a God there in the 90's. I have no dog in this particular argument, except to say I don't think the two things (Larkin's status and the presence of a White Hope undercurrent) are necessarily contradictory. For one, it may be different factions of the population espousing the particular views, but beyond that, I don't think it's hard to envision a person attached to the team enough to cheer the team's black stars, while the fact that he finds himself in that position making him even more resentful as a white dead-ender. Edited October 1 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 Barry Larkin was worshiped in a school district where the n word could be shouted without reprimand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 9 hours ago, IdahoBert said: I wondered if anyone was talking about this when I noticed a thing on Facebook about it. When I was a kid, the thing with Rose and Ray Fosse rubbed me the wrong way so I was anti-Rose. I’m not sure now how justified my enmity was or not. I disliked Woody Hayes for the same sort of reasons. So I was not much of a fan of Rose and glad I didn’t live in southern Indiana or southern Ohio, and feel obligated to root for the Reds, and by extension, for him. I did not like the Fosse incident either. Rose was a villain to me rather than a hero, but he was one of the most memorable figures in baseball history. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 1 Author Share Posted October 1 3 hours ago, Tiger337 said: I did not like the Fosse incident either. Rose was a villain to me rather than a hero, but he was one of the most memorable figures in baseball history. Now that I can agree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 Hee-hee 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 1 Author Share Posted October 1 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said: Hee-hee It was be a lot funnier if they showed them wearing polo shirts and wielding golf clubs. Edited October 1 by chasfh 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted October 6 Share Posted October 6 I was going through a box of old baseball cards and found a Dwight Gooden rookie card. His 1985 season was one of the greatest pitching seasons in history. He's one of those guys who was a what might have been... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 1 hour ago, tiger2022 said: I was going through a box of old baseball cards and found a Dwight Gooden rookie card. His 1985 season was one of the greatest pitching seasons in history. He's one of those guys who was a what might have been... Still, he stayed the league for 15yrs. It's a natural view to look at guys who explode onto the scene but then fall back as 'might have beens' and sometimes it's certainly true. OTOH, sometimes it's just that a lucky season comes early in their career instead of later, when it's more likely to be dismissed as a fluke because by then there is a track record. The counter example would be Rick Porcello. Nobody calls RP a 'might have been' because of '2016 because it came out of the blue later in his career, but we might have called him that it he had had that season in 2009 or 2010 and then gone on to the same rest of the career he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 Gooden got derailed because of substance abuse. Porcello never was even remotely close to having the pitching skill that Gooden displayed. He stayed in the league because even high and drunk he was still better than nearly every one on the planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 7 Share Posted October 7 10 minutes ago, tiger2022 said: Gooden got derailed because of substance abuse. Porcello never was even remotely close to having the pitching skill that Gooden displayed. He stayed in the league because even high and drunk he was still better than nearly every one on the planet. Agree to disagree a bit. He had 7 pretty good years - I guess one can argue semantics but I just wouldn't call that a 'might have been'. Even with the abuse issues he was a 'was'. Can't really know since we don't have modern data from that era but after 7 years his velo may have just started down which happens to a lot of guys irrespective of abuse issues. He certainly got himself into trouble, can't argue that, but I will leave teasing out chicken and egg between success, failure, frustration and substance abuse to you if you want to take that shot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 8 Author Share Posted October 8 On 10/6/2024 at 9:04 PM, tiger2022 said: Gooden got derailed because of substance abuse. Porcello never was even remotely close to having the pitching skill that Gooden displayed. He stayed in the league because even high and drunk he was still better than nearly every one on the planet. Gooden had 57 fWAR across a 17-year career, which is borderline Hall of Fame level, so I wouldn’t say his career was exactly derailed. I’m not any more certain that Gooden should have had a Roger Clemens career because of his age 20 season than I am Al Kaline should have had a Willie Mays career because of his age 20 season. Maybe 1985 was always going to be a complete outlier year for Gooden either way, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 (edited) 21 minutes ago, chasfh said: I’m not any more certain that Gooden should have had a Roger Clemens career because of his age 20 season than the 2.2 BB/9 is sort of the tell. It's what made me think of the Porcello comp because in RP's CY year he also put up an outlier to his usual walk rate. Take a pitcher with great stuff and give him an outlier low walk rate and you are going to get a great year. Now interestingly enough Gooden did hit that walk rate once again in '88 but clearly his stuff was down some from '85 judging by hits and Ks, so it was not as dominant a year - though still a pretty good one. on a related note, an incredibly low walk rate is a big piece of Skubal's dominance since last season, and to be honest, I don't expect him to be able to stay below 2 on a regular basis in the future either. Of course if we get some form of ABS all future BB/9 comparisons go out the window anyway. Edited October 8 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 8 Author Share Posted October 8 10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: the 2.2 BB/9 is sort of the tell. It's what made me think of the Porcello comp because in RP's CY year he also put up an outlier to his usual walk rate. Take a pitcher with great stuff and give him an outlier low walk rate and you are going to get a great year. Now interestingly enough Gooden did hit that walk rate once again in '88 but clearly his stuff was down some from '85 judging by hits and Ks, so it was not as dominant a year - though still a pretty good one. on a related note, an incredibly low walk rate is a big piece of Skubal's dominance since last season, and to be honest, I don't expect him to be able to stay below 2 on a regular basis in the future either. Of course if we get some form of ABS all future BB/9 comparisons go out the window anyway. A low walk rate is the entire Tigers staff's calling card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guy incognito Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 RIP Luis Tiant. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/41680767/luis-tiant-beloved-red-sox-pitching-legend-dies-83 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 2 minutes ago, guy incognito said: RIP Luis Tiant. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/41680767/luis-tiant-beloved-red-sox-pitching-legend-dies-83 Check out this box score. 14 IP? Such a different era. RIP, Luis. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: Check out this box score. 14 IP? Such a different era. RIP, Luis. Yeah look at the batters faced number. Nowadays managers usually only like the very best guys to even go through the lineup 3 times, Ryan went through it 6 times this game with a few seeing him 7 times. Edited October 8 by RandyMarsh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted October 8 Share Posted October 8 5 hours ago, guy incognito said: RIP Luis Tiant. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/41680767/luis-tiant-beloved-red-sox-pitching-legend-dies-83 That makes me sad. He was one of my all-time favorite pitchers. I used to imitate him as a pitcher in Little League. It wasn't even on purpose. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 6 hours ago, RandyMarsh said: Yeah look at the batters faced number. Nowadays managers usually only like the very best guys to even go through the lineup 3 times, Ryan went through it 6 times this game with a few seeing him 7 times. 10 BB and 19 SO in one outing by one pitcher. Amazing times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 1 hour ago, Tiger337 said: That makes me sad. He was one of my all-time favorite pitchers. I used to imitate him as a pitcher in Little League. It wasn't even on purpose. I remember we used to goof around and try to pitch like Dan Quisenberry every once in a while playing pick up baseball or whiffle ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwball Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 Loved him. I remember one night he was going to be pitching and the guy in the booth said; sometime tonight, no matter where you are sitting, Louie is going to look at you. RIP 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 9 Author Share Posted October 9 It occurs to me that I would pay a fairly substantial additional fee on my MLB.tv package if, instead of being subjected to watching commercials in between innings and during pitching changes, I could get a behind-the-plate camera shot of the field so I could just watch the activity taking place on it while waiting for play to resume. That might be worth $25 a year extra for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted October 9 Share Posted October 9 19 minutes ago, chasfh said: It occurs to me that I would pay a fairly substantial additional fee on my MLB.tv package if, instead of being subjected to watching commercials in between innings and during pitching changes, I could get a behind-the-plate camera shot of the field so I could just watch the activity taking place on it while waiting for play to resume. That might be worth $25 a year extra for me. It’s coming. As VR becomes more accessible, you will eventually pay to be in the stadium, looking around the ballpark on your terms, from the comfort of your home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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