Harris’s VP will be [. ], because ——-

[romad1]

Just now, CMRivdogs said:

Not to mention John Kerry's "swift boating" vs GW Bush's military career.

I'm still very warm towards the Bush family.  I think they generally are nobles oblige in a good way.   

[Motown Bombers]

I once said W was the worst president of my lifetime. I take that back. 

[oblong]

13 minutes ago, pfife said:

it is crazy to think about the pretty intense fights I had with posters here like 15 years ago that we never disagree now, obvs Oblong fits that description for me, Romad too.

One thing I wonder for you guys that switched, if in 2028 let's say the GOP goes back to a pre-maga normal GOP and the presidential candidate is a regular ol' pre-maga GOP candidate.    Are you guys like pretty much Democrats now and it would be an effort by the GOP to get you back?   Or if this happens are you back to the GOP?    

 

It would take something extreme, like a Dem version of a Trump, to get me to go back.  I have changed my beliefs in a lot of ways because I realized a lot of the talking points were horse ****.  I'm pro choice all the way.  I think the rich can pay more taxes and be ok with it. I used to believe in "trickle down" but you have to take care of people at a minimum level.  I'm for gun control.   I'm also for a strong military and I don't get into the arguments like we should cut defense to spend on something else.  We can spend on both.  We should help take care of the world.

Basically I think it all came down to spending a lot of time on the right wing sites at the time and being in a bubble.  National Review, Instapundit, WSJ, etc.  I read that stuff all day long.  

[CMRivdogs]

2 minutes ago, romad1 said:

I'm still very warm towards the Bush family.  I think they generally are nobles oblige in a good way.   

Time has a way of giving more perspective than decisions in the heat of the moment. 
 

A Facebook friend mentioned that the Watergate Hearings began on this day in 1973. My Republican congressman at the time was on that committee (Caldwell Butler). I was a 21 year old kid. I can't imagine my current Republican Congressman doing that now.

[oblong]

6 minutes ago, romad1 said:

I'm still very warm towards the Bush family.  I think they generally are nobles oblige in a good way.   

as do I.  HW BUsh was my favorite president.  They came from a family that pushed service.  They knew they were fortunate in life and their belief system was that they needed to serve others because of that.   Bush 41 could have come home after WWII and gotten a cushy job on wall street and led a comfortable life in the north east with no guilt or regrets, after all he was shot down in the war and almost beheaded.  But he moved west and lived in self induced poverty for awhile and built up his own company.  

[oblong]

Another thing about the decency of HW Bush.  After Nixon's inauguration LBJ came home to Texas to some fanfare but for a departing president it's anti climactic for sure, especially one who didn't run because he couldn't win, which is the same as losing in practical terms.  Who was there to greet him?  A young congressman from the other party.  That's class.

 

[romad1]

W's denouncement of Trump "weird ****" and his friendship with Michelle Obama at the various funerals are a pretty good post Presidential lense to view him through.  I get the rage Dems must have felt in 2000 but I was protesting at the naval observatory in the wake of that election with my blue dog dem wife to get Gore "out of Cheney's house".  

I also grew very discouraged by the hackery of people like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz and full on despair at the mortgage crisis.  Hard to defend that legacy. 

[oblong]

Bush and Cheney did not end on the best of terms either over the Scooter Libby affair.  Cheney wanted a pardon, not a commutation or whatever it was.  Bush said "No, he lied.... I am not pardoning someone who did something wrong".

[Motown Bombers]

4 minutes ago, romad1 said:

W's denouncement of Trump "weird ****" and his friendship with Michelle Obama at the various funerals are a pretty good post Presidential lense to view him through.  I get the rage Dems must have felt in 2000 but I was protesting at the naval observatory in the wake of that election with my blue dog dem wife to get Gore "out of Cheney's house".  

I also grew very discouraged by the hackery of people like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz and full on despair at the mortgage crisis.  Hard to defend that legacy. 

I was in high school during 9/11 and watched as Bush had no idea what to do and sat there like he just **** his pants. I started college when Bush entered Iraq and army recruiters were at my school trying to recruit me to fight in a war he lied about. I graduated college to the worst economy since the Great Depression. This after the election was stolen from Gore. The legacy of Bush lives on with Alito and Roberts. He’s almost Trump level bad. 

[romad1]

7 minutes ago, oblong said:

Bush and Cheney did not end on the best of terms either over the Scooter Libby affair.  Cheney wanted a pardon, not a commutation or whatever it was.  Bush said "No, he lied.... I am not pardoning someone who did something wrong".

I think folks who left the GOP over Trump should will be in a good place to smell the danger of our old side's propaganda and our new allies as well.  Its pretty liberating.   I reflect on how I responded to a lot of whistling past the graveyard stuff re: the Biden debate.   

[romad1]

as much as I like Biden, I'm not happy with the limitations on Ukraine's response to Russia.   I get where it comes from.  I wouldn't have played it like that.  OTOH, its probably similar to how HW Bush would have played it.  

[Motown Bombers]

Speaking of Bush, they’re doing the swiftboating again with Walz. I also remember the John “songbird” McCain. 

 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

I once said W was the worst president of my lifetime. I take that back. 

No, it's still DubyaMD. As bad as Trump is, he has yet to commit war crimes, torture, or engage in an illegal invasion and occupation of another nation under false pretenses and fabricated intelligence reports as DubyaMD did in Iraq. Over 4,000 American servicemembers lost their lives and hundreds-of-thousands of Iraqi civilians did because of DubyaMD's and HaliburtonDick's lies and war crimes. Bush should have been tried at the Hauge for war crimes, authorizing torture against other human beings, and the use of chemical weapons (when he used white phosphorus bombs) during combat. He should presently be sitting in a prison cell for the remainder of his life for committing war crimes, authorizing torture of other human beings, and using chemical weapons on the ground in Iraq.

And to the argument that Trump wanted to subvert democracy and is an authoritarian leader, so did Bush. Let's not forget that him and HaliburtonDick were believers in and pushed the Unitary Executive Theory. They sought to expand the Presidential powers well beyond what is regulated and allowed by the US Constitution. Not to mention, Bush was against search and seizure requirements and attempted to subvert the US Constitution with the Patriot Act and provisions around warrantless wiretapping.

Trump is awful in every way imaginable. But Bush is still the worst!

Edited August 9 by Mr.TaterSalad

[gehringer_2]

On 8/7/2024 at 4:05 PM, pfife said:

The GOP should put this on the hi fi and do some learning.

 

Come gather 'round people

Wherever you roam.....

 

What does it tell us that the most celebrated song writer of one era was writing that, while the most celebrated song writer of this era writes about bad boyfriends? 

Of course today Dylan claims he never meant anything by it. He'll tell you he was just stringing some words together.

[pfife]

6 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

What does it tell us that the most celebrated song writer of one era was writing that, while the most celebrated song writer of this era writes about bad boyfriends? 

Of course today Dylan claims he never meant anything by it. He'll tell you he was just stringing some words together.

yeah I hear yah. 

God worked through Bob.  

One of the things I love about him is he'd punk as hell way before punk existed.   It's wild that he can obviously sing but never does lol 

the absolute best 

[chasfh]

On 8/9/2024 at 10:58 AM, Mr.TaterSalad said:

No, it's still DubyaMD. As bad as Trump is, he has yet to commit war crimes, torture, or engage in an illegal invasion and occupation of another nation under false pretenses and fabricated intelligence reports as DubyaMD did in Iraq. Over 4,000 American servicemembers lost their lives and hundreds-of-thousands of Iraqi civilians did because of DubyaMD's and HaliburtonDick's lies and war crimes. Bush should have been tried at the Hauge for war crimes, authorizing torture against other human beings, and the use of chemical weapons (when he used white phosphorus bombs) during combat. He should presently be sitting in a prison cell for the remainder of his life for committing war crimes, authorizing torture of other human beings, and using chemical weapons on the ground in Iraq.

And to the argument that Trump wanted to subvert democracy and is an authoritarian leader, so did Bush. Let's not forget that him and HaliburtonDick were believers in and pushed the Unitary Executive Theory. They sought to expand the Presidential powers well beyond what is regulated and allowed by the US Constitution. Not to mention, Bush was against search and seizure requirements and attempted to subvert the US Constitution with the Patriot Act and provisions around warrantless wiretapping.

Trump is awful in every way imaginable. But Bush is still the worst!

I don't necessarily agree, but this is a defensible post.

[romad1]

22 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don't necessarily agree, but this is a defensible post.

I concur it is defensible. 

My priors are not Taters' prior of course.  I come out of that world where nails need hammers.  Many people in that line have regrets now.

Accepting that Iraq was foisted on people for terrible reasons which I don't necessarily agree with but which had a terrible result.  This was a failure of vision and strategy particularly because the management of it was done by overrated hacks (Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz and Paul Bremer) who thought it could all be done on the cheap.   I clearly recall in 2000 prior to the election that I was part of a consultant team working on Rumsfeld and co's "Non-linear logistics" for the SecDEF and looked at it all and thought...this is gonna get a lot of people killed in a world where tactical airlift can be shot down as easily as it can.  I wasn't even comprehending the decade's worst killer of US troops: the IED. 

W's sins came with remorse.  There is a difference.  Trump killed hundreds of thousands who would otherwise have lived without his idiocracy.  Trump is a Russian useful idiot (at a minimum). 

A perfect version of a W presidency would have been him going into Afghanistan in 2002 -- somehow getting Pakistan to hand over UBL and us figuring out how not to stay in those countries but that wasn't going to happen.  UBL and KSM were going to strike the US in 2001 so, it was inevitable that 9/11 was going to happen in some form to Bush or Gore.  Not, having a 2500 (Afghanistan) or 4500 (Iraq) US military casualties and many tens of thousands of wounded besides over 20 years would be hard to put up against the numbers of preventable dead from COVID in that one year.

 

 

Edited August 11 by romad1

[Tiger337]

On 8/7/2024 at 8:56 AM, Motown Bombers said:

The best part is that Harris likely won't be as good of a president as Biden, but at least she's younger. 

The question is whether she will be a better President in 2025-2028.

[smr-nj]

Just now, Tiger337 said:

The question is whether she will be a better President in 2025-2028.

That’s a pretty high target target because Biden was really f’ing good. 

[Tiger337]

Just now, smr-nj said:

That’s a pretty high target target because Biden was really f’ing good. 

But would he still be good in 2025-2028? 

[smr-nj]

12 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

But would he still be good in 2025-2028? 

Why are we even asking that question.

It’s a moot point.

[Tiger337]

10 minutes ago, smr-nj said:

Why are we even asking that question.

It’s a moot point.

I asked the question of MTB because we are electing a President for that time period and MTB appeared to be mocking the selection of Harris over Biden.   

[romad1]

On 8/9/2024 at 4:56 PM, gehringer_2 said:

What does it tell us that the most celebrated song writer of one era was writing that, while the most celebrated song writer of this era writes about bad boyfriends? 

Of course today Dylan claims he never meant anything by it. He'll tell you he was just stringing some words together.

Paul McCartney famously was derided by John Lennon for "silly love songs"

[Motor City Sonics]

Imagine how the coverage would be if VP Harris was making 20-40 posts a day whining and bitching about how people cover her?   How she's be called Hysterical and Unfit and Thin Skinned.        If she went on endless tirades about Newsmaxx and Fox?    She'd be finished.           But all our current major media does is sit there  wtih Trump and do nothing, because they need him for clicks.   I always though that our press is almost like another part of our nation's defense,  a defense against itself.    Now they're just reality TV posing as News.  Kurt Loder gave more hard-hitting news on MTV. 

Edited August 11 by Motor City Sonics

[Motor City Sonics]

You know, the media hates Biden because Biden is boring.   Not even considering age here.   He's just boring.   No endless tirades.  When his son gets in trouble he accepts the verdict and says the justice system did it's job and where's the big headline there?       You're SUPPOSED to be boring as President.   Just like a good home plate umpire is one who's name you don't even know because you never had a reason to complain about him.     Eisenhower had a very good Presidency.  He was as boring as they come.