chasfh Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 2 hours ago, Tiger337 said: It didn't used to be normal, but the the linked list shows that it is. Depth has become a more important part of roster building than it ever was. True, although to Sports_Freak's point, you can't keep aftermarket above-average big leaguers on the shelf just in case your OEM above-average major leaguer goes down. A team loses enough guys and no amount of depth planning is going to assure they won't lose a step, if not several steps. I know Harris and Hinch gets blamed for everything that goes wrong, and that's a fan's prerogative, but I don't think they can be fairly blamed for not leading us to the playoffs when everyone gets hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 7 minutes ago, chasfh said: True, although to Sports_Freak's point, you can't keep aftermarket above-average big leaguers on the shelf just in case your OEM above-average major leaguer goes down. A team loses enough guys and no amount of depth planning is going to assure they won't lose a step, if not several steps. I know Harris and Hinch gets blamed for everything that goes wrong, and that's a fan's prerogative, but I don't think they can be fairly blamed for not leading us to the playoffs when everyone gets hurt. It is indeed difficult to carry average major leaguers on the bench or in the minors. It is expensive and it's also difficult for the players to not play regularly when they know they are good. However, the teams that best figure out how to manage the new game of attrition are going to have am advantage. I am not blaming Tigers management, just commenting on the state of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 1 minute ago, Tiger337 said: It is indeed difficult to carry average major leaguers on the bench or in the minors. It is expensive and it's also difficult for the players to not play regularly when they know they are good. However, the teams that best figure out how to manage the new game of attrition are going to have am advantage. I am not blaming Tigers management, just commenting on the state of the game. Understood, and I am not stipulating that you're a guy who would do that, but there are plenty of fans, including some in this very forum, who do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 2 hours ago, Tiger337 said: It didn't used to be normal, but the the linked list shows that it is. Depth has become a more important part of roster building than it ever was. So we need an All Star outfielder to replace our All Star outfielder 50 or 60 games a season? Make it make sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 24 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: It is indeed difficult to carry average major leaguers on the bench or in the minors. It is expensive and it's also difficult for the players to not play regularly when they know they are good. However, the teams that best figure out how to manage the new game of attrition are going to have am advantage. I am not blaming Tigers management, just commenting on the state of the game. This goes back the choice between building a position roster around a few stars, versus 13-15 good and at least somewhat interchangeable players. The latter is going to be more resilient in the face of injury. But of course you can set out to do the latter, and still end up lucky(?) enough to end up with a few stars anyway. Its not like you aren't going to play them if you have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 https://blogs.fangraphs.com/river-ryan-jazz-chisholm-and-baseballs-most-injured-teams/ Fangraphs disagrees with our assessment of what the Tigers have lost to injury. Less than three WAR. Third lowest in MLB. Zips may not be the best at assessing young players though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports_Freak Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 26 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/river-ryan-jazz-chisholm-and-baseballs-most-injured-teams/ Fangraphs disagrees with our assessment of what the Tigers have lost to injury. Less than three WAR. Third lowest in MLB. Zips may not be the best at assessing young players though. Well, we got lucky with Perez producing for Carpenter. But the Riley Greene injury along with the Tork and Meadows ineffectivness weren't as easily replaced. They weren't injury losses but they still effected (affected?) our win total. And I really will repeat, IMO, we can't compete with our All Star left fielder missing 50+ games per season. If every position player were hurt that often, would fans expect enough depth to cover for them? And will Harris offer arbitration when he's eligible, with his injury history? He may just move on from him, trade him away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerNation Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 Yeah Riley Greene is really at risk of being non tendered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 15 hours ago, chasfh said: True, although to Sports_Freak's point, you can't keep aftermarket above-average big leaguers on the shelf just in case your OEM above-average major leaguer goes down. A team loses enough guys and no amount of depth planning is going to assure they won't lose a step, if not several steps. I know Harris and Hinch gets blamed for everything that goes wrong, and that's a fan's prerogative, but I don't think they can be fairly blamed for not leading us to the playoffs when everyone gets hurt. It seems a bit of frustration with Riley here? We all may have a bit of that - but none more than what Riley himself may have. He tries hard. He is a very good player. Some players are just more likely to get hurt. It is up to management to be aware of this and take some precautions. Meadows not performing, then getting hurt put Greene in CF more often than the team wanted him to be. The LA series, then on turf for days at the AS game, not to mention no break. Then back on turf in the Toronto series right after the NO break (for Greene) ASG period, etc. took a toll. I am not sure how the team manages this. There is a pattern and they have to see it. This is why player development is so critical. Greene should be no. 3 if not 4 on our CF depth chart to start with. ex Meadows, Vierling, Perez (heck even Baddoo)... later Clark. Again, development. The young players have to go with the team for 5-6 years. If some of it is sitting, so be it. Good young talented players, as SHarris said, are the key. Sure LAD, NYY and a couple other teams can spend there way around it, most teams cannot - so developing young players is the key. CF is a 'defense' first position. Even a vet like Marisnik helped us last year ('23). The player does not have to be a 'star' every time. Just good enough for a particular role to help. Management hopefully understand this. Many injuries are simply a fact in MLB. Again, it is becoming a game of attrition and depth and preparation are of utmost importance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 One way to avoid this is to have a decent minor league system. I know everyone was screaming at the Orioles that they should have emptied out the minor leagues to get players at the deadline, but if an injury happens they call up a top prospect. That doesn't mean those guys are going to be stars but they have the potential to be good players. Plus they are not tied to paying average mlb players a bunch of money to retain them as they can replace them. I think it is important to have some up and coming starters or vets that are in AAA that can be plugged in the rotation when an injury happens. But injuries aren't an excuse for a front office because every team is going to have injuries during the season. Some franchises plan for it better. It says a lot about the organization that the Tigers need to have 3 bullpen days and throw a below average starter for day 4 to go with Skubal. Poor player development and acquisition on their part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 (edited) And addressing the SP injuries, it really is unbelievable that an organization could not have depth at AAA to bring up several guys that can keep you in ballgames...maybe give the team 5 or 6 innings with a 4.50 ERA or something close to that. There are washed up vets, career minor league pitchers who might have had a few starts in the majors, or younger guys ready to go. Yet, the Tigers had none of those. And what kind of GM doesn't plan for injuries to the SPs? There really aren't any guys that could have been signed that can't give a team similar levels of production as Mize or Maeda? It makes me believe that a. Ilitch is unwilling to spend what amounts to loose change to have some vets in AAA ready to come up and pitch when inevitable injuries happen. b. Harris is indeed as lazy and incompetent as many people believe. Or c. They just dont care about the product at all. I just don't know what other options it could be. How can an organization not plan for something that 100% is going to happen. Edited August 15 by tiger2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4hzglory Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 34 minutes ago, tiger2022 said: And addressing the SP injuries, it really is unbelievable that an organization could not have depth at AAA to bring up several guys that can keep you in ballgames...maybe give the team 5 or 6 innings with a 4.50 ERA or something close to that. There are washed up vets, career minor league pitchers who might have had a few starts in the majors, or younger guys ready to go. Yet, the Tigers had none of those. And what kind of GM doesn't plan for injuries to the SPs? There really aren't any guys that could have been signed that can't give a team similar levels of production as Mize or Maeda? It makes me believe that a. Ilitch is unwilling to spend what amounts to loose change to have some vets in AAA ready to come up and pitch when inevitable injuries happen. b. Harris is indeed as lazy and incompetent as many people believe. Or c. They just dont care about the product at all. I just don't know what other options it could be. How can an organization not plan for something that 100% is going to happen. Montero, Sammons, Hurter are currently doing just that. The Tigers aren’t below.500 because of pitching injuries. The games they’ve lost have been much more from offense struggles than pitching. And the fact that they are playing as well as they are now is a testament to somehow getting reasonable pitching from guys who weren’t expected to be called upon. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeytargets39 Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 13 hours ago, TigerNation said: Yeah Riley Greene is really at risk of being non tendered. He has a better risk of being non tendoned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 9 minutes ago, 4hzglory said: Montero, Sammons, Hurter are currently doing just that. The Tigers aren’t below.500 because of pitching injuries. The games they’ve lost have been much more from offense struggles than pitching. And the fact that they are playing as well as they are now is a testament to somehow getting reasonable pitching from guys who weren’t expected to be called upon. I am not blaming Harris, but I doubt any of those guys will replace Mize's performance over let's say 80 innings. Mize has been somewhat of a disappointment, but still an average starter when healthy. These guys are probably replacement level which is what you can expect from AAA depth, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4hzglory Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 19 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I am not blaming Harris, but I doubt any of those guys will replace Mize's performance over let's say 80 innings. Mize has been somewhat of a disappointment, but still an average starter when healthy. These guys are probably replacement level which is what you can expect from AAA depth, No doubt. But going into the season, they were way down the line of guys most thought we had in depth. Manning, SGL, and Madden were all ahead of them. Mize and Olson getting hurt, Maeda struggling, and Flaherty being traded are all obviously going to destroy what depth we though we had. And IMO it was reasonable to expect we had enough depth. Mize has shown he could be an average starter. Manning also showed that in stretches. Maeda's career also showed that. Gipson-Long also showed flashes of being able to at least fill in reasonably. You could see hope in Madden taking an Olson type step. The fact that all those things went wrong and we still are getting solid pitching from the guys who were 10th-12th on the depth chart at best going into the year is actually impressive. Our pitching is the primary reason we are only 5 games under .500 (with 7 more games against the White Sox ahead ) I also wonder if the ABS challenge system in the minors is currently making pitchers look worse in AAA than they are when they get to the majors? In the same way it is making it easier for hitters. Obviously there will be a large shift whenever MLB adopts the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 2 hours ago, tiger2022 said: And addressing the SP injuries, it really is unbelievable that an organization could not have depth at AAA to bring up several guys that can keep you in ballgames...maybe give the team 5 or 6 innings with a 4.50 ERA or something close to that. There are washed up vets, career minor league pitchers who might have had a few starts in the majors, or younger guys ready to go. Yet, the Tigers had none of those. And what kind of GM doesn't plan for injuries to the SPs? There really aren't any guys that could have been signed that can't give a team similar levels of production as Mize or Maeda? It makes me believe that a. Ilitch is unwilling to spend what amounts to loose change to have some vets in AAA ready to come up and pitch when inevitable injuries happen. b. Harris is indeed as lazy and incompetent as many people believe. Or c. They just dont care about the product at all. I just don't know what other options it could be. How can an organization not plan for something that 100% is going to happen. If you don't know what the other options could be, then you have been willfully ignoring everything they've been doing and saying for the last two years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 (edited) 4 hours ago, alex said: It seems a bit of frustration with Riley here? We all may have a bit of that ...then on turf for days ... Then back on turf in the Toronto series ... took a toll. I am not sure how the team manages this... Can we give him a 1B glove? To see what happens? Could he handle it at 1B? Edited August 15 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlington Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 An intact starting OF of Riley, Parker and Carpenter should be pretty good and pretty rare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 The Tigers' issues with injuries come from the fact that the depth got hurt this year. Manning, Flores, SGL, Leonard, Kreidler, etc. That isn't going to be factored into the Fangraphs analysis. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: Can we give him a 1B glove? To see what happens? Could he handle it at 1B? I'm going to guess we wouldn't like having to watch JHM try to dig throws out of the dirt. Stranger things have happened of course, but I wouldn't count on that being one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 11 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: I'm going to guess we wouldn't like having to watch JHM try to dig throws out of the dirt. Stranger things have happened of course, but I wouldn't count on that being one of them. That was in reference to Riley Greene. As a possible way to limit some of his injuries...? He'd actually have to be capable at 1B however... in reference to the point you're making... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: That was in reference to Riley Greene. As a possible way to limit some of his injuries...? He'd actually have to be capable at 1B however... in reference to the point you're making... He would dive into the dugout for a foul ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 2 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: He would dive into the dugout for a foul ball. That would be our luck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 4 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: He would dive into the dugout for a foul ball. PS: Couldn't he just reach? I mean, my gosh, he's 6'3" with a long reach so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted August 15 Share Posted August 15 1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said: PS: Couldn't he just reach? I mean, my gosh, he's 6'3" with a long reach so... I just picture him tripping over the bag and breaking a hip or something outrageous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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