CFP semi-final: #1 Michigan against a school named after a type of Chili or #2 Michigan vs. a team who couldn't even win the SEC

[MichiganCardinal]

Coming from someone whose EFC read "00000"...

I owe the same amount in loans resulting from community college as I do resulting from my time at Stanford. I would consider my grand total of student debt (right now) negligible in the grand scheme of the student loan crisis many are facing, especially when you consider I spent a grand total of nearly seven years in undergrad (though many were part time).

When I chose Stanford over Michigan, Michigan's financial aid offer was overall comparable to Stanford's, though a little less yearly.

[buddha]

5 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

correct  - tuition and fees cover 80% of costs today, they used to cover 25%. It's basically the same budget model as a private school. The proportionally larger endowments at someplace like an Ivy generates roughly the same percentage contribution at a Yale that the state does at Michigan. But higher Ed costs more everywhere.

So here are the numbers:

go all the way back to before inflation - say 1968- which is convenient yr as my sister started at UM that year. Total UM enrollment today is 50K.

Tuition for a year in '68 was $350. UM claims that was 23% of the costs at that time, so total cost of educating her was $1460 of which the state was kicking in $1,110. There was not a lot of research money in those days so let's assume the general fund was essentially tuition plus state appropriation. The price deflator since then is 8.28. So in today's dollars, the state should be kicking in $9180 per student. For a total enrollment of 50K, that would be $459M. Actual state support is $322M. The difference is $2.7K per student. The $2.4B general fund works out to $48K being spent per student educated(!). The $1.8B in tuition comes out to $34K/student. If the state had kept up, reduce that to $31K. So the U's line that tuition increases are all about reductions in state funding is not exactly accurate though it is a big chunk-o-change. But the real increase in University spending per student since '68 adjusting for inflation is from $12K ($1460*8.28) to $48K, or almost a quadrupling!

When I look around campus, the question is always - where is that money? Being a college professor has not really changed much in terms of economic class - still solidly upper middle, and a lot of the instructional staff is well below full professor pay grade. If you believe the charts, G&A is not all that terrible. At the engin school one huge change is the sq footage of architecture per student. The physical plant per student has exploded. But the Engin School is the outlier - it raises a lot of it's own money via research and and it employs a lot of non-student/non-faculty full time scientists who are largely self supporting. But the E-school just isn't that big a part of the budget total. So where is it? 

well, this is different from me arguing that they should use their $17 billion endowment to defray some or most of the tuition costs, but yes, i agree with your premise (or what i took to be your premise) that costs have exploded.  and you know why: administration.  they have classes taught by adjuncts (or TAs) to whom they pay nothing while paying the advisor to the assistant dean for diversity and inclusion in the dental school 100k per year.  THAT'S what your massive increase in tuition costs has gone to sustain: the enormous bureaucracy that has grown up around these universities.

and i take your point on the gop "starving the beast" but its more than that.  the beast of pensions has grown exponentially and is pushing out a lot of money that would have been spent on things like education because the state refuses to pay for them by increasing its revenues and refuses to cut any expenditure that might result in less pork for them to hand out.  and that's as much (or more) a democrat problem with their love of expensive public sector unions as it is a gop problem of not wanting to increase taxes to pay for their previous spending sprees.

[gehringer_2]

27 minutes ago, buddha said:

well, this is different from me arguing that they should use their $17 billion endowment to defray some or most of the tuition costs, but yes, i agree with your premise (or what i took to be your premise) that costs have exploded.  and you know why: administration.  they have classes taught by adjuncts (or TAs) to whom they pay nothing while paying the advisor to the assistant dean for diversity and inclusion in the dental school 100k per year.  THAT'S what your massive increase in tuition costs has gone to sustain: the enormous bureaucracy that has grown up around these universities.

and i take your point on the gop "starving the beast" but its more than that.  the beast of pensions has grown exponentially and is pushing out a lot of money that would have been spent on things like education because the state refuses to pay for them by increasing its revenues and refuses to cut any expenditure that might result in less pork for them to hand out.  and that's as much (or more) a democrat problem with their love of expensive public sector unions as it is a gop problem of not wanting to increase taxes to pay for their previous spending sprees.

there is also the argument that the availability of so much load money has removed any market pressure for schools to keep costs down. I don't know how to evaluate that argument. It's plausible, it is true? Heck if I know.

The U says it $1.2B in aid flows to students against that $1.7B total tuition bill, but the devil is in the ratio of loans to grants, which they conveniently do not report.

[lordstanley]

4 hours ago, buddha said:

 agree with your premise (or what i took to be your premise) that costs have exploded.  and you know why: administration.  they have classes taught by adjuncts (or TAs) to whom they pay nothing while paying the advisor to the assistant dean for diversity and inclusion in the dental school 100k per year.  THAT'S what your massive increase in tuition costs has gone to sustain: the enormous bureaucracy that has grown up around these universities.

 

 

 

[Motor City Sonics]

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9632459,-83.3896486,3a,79.5y,352.93h,86.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4BMMCLSd5WHIU8Y1ChqlxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

Called it home for about 9 months

[romad1]

12 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9632459,-83.3896486,3a,79.5y,352.93h,86.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4BMMCLSd5WHIU8Y1ChqlxA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

Called it home for about 9 months

The game could get out of hand if someone started the google-map-the-weirdest-place you've lived contest.

[djhutch]

On 12/6/2021 at 11:25 PM, romad1 said:

Some tales of the tape between the two schools playing in Miami on New Year's Eve:

Number of Astronauts: 

• Michigan 12; Number of space missions entirely crewed by Michigan alums 2 (Gemini IV and Apollo 15);
• Georgia still working out if the Earth is round.

🤣

[buddha]

22 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

there is also the argument that the availability of so much load money has removed any market pressure for schools to keep costs down. I don't know how to evaluate that argument. It's plausible, it is true? Heck if I know.

The U says it $1.2B in aid flows to students against that $1.7B total tuition bill, but the devil is in the ratio of loans to grants, which they conveniently do not report.

it most certainly is true about loans.  they have guaranteed money from the government.  to a certain degree, michigan will charge in tuition what they can get.

on the one hand, the avilability of loans means more kids can afford school, otoh it drives up the price because schools know that money is there.

what's the solution?  i dont know.  you could ask schools not to be so greedy, or for them to trim their ridiculous bureaucracy, but we all know that's not going to happen.

[Motor City Sonics]

6 hours ago, romad1 said:

The game could get out of hand if someone started the google-map-the-weirdest-place you've lived contest.

Ah, that place wasn't weird.  Cool neighborhood actually.   I used to walk everywhere back then.   Even the houses with non-college students in them were pretty cool.  Mellow neighborhood overall.    That house was bigger than it looks. 

[romad1]

2 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Ah, that place wasn't weird.  Cool neighborhood actually.   I used to walk everywhere back then.   Even the houses with non-college students in them were pretty cool.  Mellow neighborhood overall.    That house was bigger than it looks. 

I took a stab at it and everyplace I've lived that wasn't suburban has been gentrified by now.   There is a sardonic Talking Heads song waiting to be heard about such things.

Edited December 10, 2021 by romad1

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Not Michigan, but the Georgia Tech glee club did a mockery of Georgia's fight song (Glory Glory to Old Georgia) only singing To Hell With Georgia. Gold!

 

[romad1]

1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Not Michigan, but the Georgia Tech glee club did a mockery of Georgia's fight song (Glory Glory to Old Georgia) only singing To Hell With Georgia. Gold!

 

To use that song to make mockery of them is pretty fun.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

5 hours ago, romad1 said:

To use that song to make mockery of them is pretty fun.

The line about we will teach the poor dumb farm boys they should stick to slopping hogs. Pretentiously awesome!

[Fox Wismic]

On 12/9/2021 at 2:22 PM, djhutch said:

🤣

 

[Fox Wismic]

39 minutes ago, Fox Wismic said:

 

Let's not forget JACK LOUSMA, UM alumnus who headed a Skylab mission, a Shuttlecraft Columbia mission, and was the recipient of the famous, "Houston, we have a problem!" message.

I saw a photo of him back then with a "M Go Blue!" bumper sticker slapped onto one of his space vehicles. I have scoured the internet but can't find it.

[SkyBlue]

On 12/7/2021 at 9:41 AM, Motor City Sonics said:

I lived in Athens, Ga.    I loved it there.   Cool town.   Much less snobby than Ann Arbor, which I also love.   Athens was much more affordable too (at least back then, not so much now).    Ann Arbor had The Stooges and Bob Seger,  Athens had R.E.M. and The B-52s.    I wore shorts in January in Athens.  They all thought I was crazy.     40 Watt Club and Blind Pig both had the same vibe. I like both equally.    Both had great record stores back in the day.   Athens gets high with a balloon festival these days,  Ann Arbor gets high with Hash Bash.     Ann Arbor is losing it's personality as the old hippies that opened businesses are retiring and their businesses are being replaced with chains.   I don't know if that is happening in Athens.    Athens had The Varsity (it's moved) and Weaver D's (Automatic For The People).   Ann Arbor has Zingerman's and the Fleetwood (hippie has browns).    Athens was 90 mins. away from Atlanta,   Ann Arbor is 40 minutes from Detroit.  

I was in downtown Athens on Friday and Saturday, not really seeing the chains in downtown for the most part. Trapeeze and The Grit are still there and host of other bars restaurants as well.  

[SkyBlue]

I would have gone with James Earl Jones over Ann Davis.

[romad1]

21 minutes ago, SkyBlue said:

I would have gone with James Earl Jones over Ann Davis.

Thats too obv.   I could have also gone with fellow Star Wars and UM alum Lawrence Kasdan who directed the best of the Star Wars movies. 

David Allen Grier's most recent Colbert appearance was a lot of fun. 

This is the one I was shocked by:  Strother Martin!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strother_Martin

Quote

He served as a swimming instructor in the United States Navy during World War II and was a member of the diving team at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, Michigan. He entered the adult National Springboard Diving competition in hopes of gaining a berth on the U.S. Olympic team, but finished third in the competition.^[3]

Some of his best work

[buddha]

you could have gone with madonna.  she's pretty famous...

[romad1]

12 minutes ago, buddha said:

you could have gone with madonna.  she's pretty famous...

Strother Martin is the superior talent in all areas. 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, romad1 said:

Thats too obv.   I could have also gone with fellow Star Wars and UM alum Lawrence Kasdan who directed the best of the Star Wars movies. 

David Allen Grier's most recent Colbert appearance was a lot of fun. 

This is the one I was shocked by:  Strother Martin!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strother_Martin

Some of his best work

he might have been more famous, but for his failure to communicate.

[Hongbit]

University rankings are now based on how much money and/or jail time a parent is willing to do in an attempt to bribe their undeserving rich kid into school. 

[romad1]

55 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

he might have been more famous, but for his failure to communicate.

!!!

[romad1]

27 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

University rankings are now based on how much money and/or jail time a parent is willing to do in an attempt to bribe their undeserving rich kid into school. 

Nah, they are based on numerous qualitative and quantitative factors and not solely  a measure of the resentment their alumni create in others

[Motor City Sonics]

3 hours ago, SkyBlue said:

I was in downtown Athens on Friday and Saturday, not really seeing the chains in downtown for the most part. Trapeeze and The Grit are still there and host of other bars restaurants as well.  

I am not a vegetarian but I used to walk over to the Grit all the time.   Still there,  still on Prince Ave?