Trading For a Defensive End/Edge Rusher

[Jason_R]

Eh… I’m not sure there are any lessons any other franchise could learn from the Lions. Hand off ownership control to the daughter of the former owner and poster boy for ownership ineptitude. Hire a former player for a job nobody could (or can) really define. Then hire a coach that wasn’t on anyone’s list of top coaching prospects for that cycle. Then hire a GM who wasn’t on anyone’s list of top GM prospects for that cycle. Then trade your franchise QB for a QB everyone was saying was washed up, along with some picks, to a team that believed it was just a QB away from a Super Bowl. 

This wasn’t a typical rebuild. It was not about draft capital. It was about a total reconstruction and realignment of the organization from top to bottom. And it was about some good fortune and good decisions along the way. 

[Sports_Freak]

30 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I think a lesson to be learned around the NFL from the Lions success (that I hope they don't learn) is the value that can come from blowing it all up.

Head coaches and front office personnel are so afraid to lose their jobs nowadays (and fairly so given the number of quick hooks from ownership) that they have the blinders on to the long-term goals and mission of winning a Super Bowl. They would rather go between 7-10 and 10-7 in perpetuity, falling short of the playoffs in December/January or making a first round exit - maybe occasionally winning a playoff game - than go 2-15 or 3-14 in a single season, even if it meant genuine Super Bowl contention within three years. Because after 7-10, you can sell ownership on the few games you came up short, sell improvements that are really short-term bandaids, and keep your job another year.

If you told pretty much any NFL franchise (maybe sans the Chiefs) they could be where the Lions are today, but they'd have to suffer through a 3-13-1 season in 2021 first, they'd take it in a heartbeat. And when BH and DC came in, they knew what was going to happen in 2021. They said the right things publicly, about wanting to win (because of course they wanted to win), but in reality you had Tyrell Williams as your WR1 and Michael Brockers, Jamie Collins, Trey Flowers, and Jeff Okudah leading your defense. It was a tear down to the studs.

If the Raiders and Browns wanted to compete for a Super Bowl, and were willing to do what it takes, they would do the same. Rid the talent for the maximum draft capital you can acquire, resign yourself to 2-15 next season, and build from the ground up. Guys like Myles Garrett, Maxx Crosby, and Matt Stafford will keep you from going 2-15. You'll keep going 6-11, 7-10, maybe 9-8 or even 10-7 in a good year. But it comes at the expense of building an actual contender.

Winning 6 to 9 games a season puts teams in that horrible place of not good enough to contend for the SB but also too many wins to get high draft picks. It's painful for teams to trade away talent but getting as many draft picks as they can would help them contend sooner. Of course, they would need to draft wisely, not like Detroit and Cleveland did for SO many years.

[NYLion]

44 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

If I set aside Garrett and Crosby, what Campbell said about what they're looking for is exactly right. If you can't replace Hutch, you need something serviceable where he would be on the field. We need a role player who can both set the edge and ideally provide some amount of rush on the quarterback.

Back to back weeks without Hutch, we've had the edge on one side of the field get burned badly for a score. It was Ukwu last week, who gave up the long score to Aaron Jones. This week the Titans first score came after Wingo bit hard on a play fake and then Nowaske got juked out of his shoes by Mason Rudolph of all people. Two of those three were inactive week one, and the one who was active (Wingo) played six snaps. We just need someone who can line up opposite Paschal, set the edge, and either make those tackles or buy enough time for our secondary and linebackers to catch up and make the tackle.

They can't depend on Paschal either, he usually has some  issues going on that makes him miss games. They need two edges really, even if they're just role players. It's not just about starters, it's all about having proven depth for when injuries inevitably occur. Three of their top guys, Barnes included, are out long term and two out for the year plus Paschal is a bad aid.

Edited Monday at 03:36 PM by NYLion

[RedRamage]

10 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

Winning 6 to 9 games a season puts teams in that horrible place of not good enough to contend for the SB but also too many wins to get high draft picks. It's painful for teams to trade away talent but getting as many draft picks as they can would help them contend sooner. Of course, they would need to draft wisely, not like Detroit and Cleveland did for SO many years.

Right! There in lies the key. It's usually pretty easy to get a great player in the first round, but what do you do after that?

Prior to Holmes, how many star, or even super solid contributors did get draft outside of round one?
2020: Jonah Jackson was a 3rd. (J. Okwara was also a 3rd, but never was more than a rotational guy at best.)
2019: Will Harris in round 3 was the best there.
2018: Tracy Walker was a 3rd... he was at least solid.
2017: The first "star" player, round 3: Kenny Golladay... and that might be more Stafford than Golladay.
 -- JRM was also drafted here in the 4th.
2016: Graham Glasgow was a 3rd.
2015: ???
2014: ???
2013: Probably the best draft class before Holms:
-- 2nd round: Darius Slay
--5th round: Sam Martin
--6th round: Theo Riddick

Now look at since Holmes started drafting:
2021: 3rd: McNeill, 4th: St. Brown, 4th Barnes
2022: 3rd: Joseph, 6th: Rodriguez
2023: 2nd: LaPorta, 2nd: Branch
 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Rid the talent for the maximum draft capital you can acquire, resign yourself to 2-15 next season,

But there is still another piece to it. You have to hit on your picks, and that's where it's not so easy to duplicate what Holmes has done. The lions have had lot of draft capital at times in the past because of losing seasons, but never used it as well as Holmes has.

[RandyMarsh]

Stating the obvioud but The Lions also benefited greatly by Goff's resurgence. 

If the Lions were forced to use an early pick on a QB like they would have If Goff didn't turn it around the landscape would look much different. 

[Sports_Freak]

22 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

But there is still another piece to it. You have to hit on your picks, and that's where it's not so easy to duplicate what Holmes has done. The lions have had lot of draft capital at times in the past because of losing seasons, but never used it as well as Holmes has.

With multiple front offices too. It's not like we had the same fools drafting, we had several GMs who just didn't use the early picks we had to properly rebuild our team. Just look at all the QB we drafted...Chuck Long, Andre Ware, Charlie Batch, Joey "blue skies" Harrington...and probably a few I missed. And then the later picks that's been pointed out we missed on and you have the....SOL years (decades.)

[Jimbo]

2 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I think a lesson to be learned around the NFL from the Lions success (that I hope they don't learn) is the value that can come from blowing it all up.

Head coaches and front office personnel are so afraid to lose their jobs nowadays (and fairly so given the number of quick hooks from ownership) that they have the blinders on to the long-term goals and mission of winning a Super Bowl. They would rather go between 7-10 and 10-7 in perpetuity, falling short of the playoffs in December/January or making a first round exit - maybe occasionally winning a playoff game - than go 2-15 or 3-14 in a single season, even if it meant genuine Super Bowl contention within three years. Because after 7-10, you can sell ownership on the few games you came up short, sell improvements that are really short-term bandaids, and keep your job another year.

If you told pretty much any NFL franchise (maybe sans the Chiefs) they could be where the Lions are today, but they'd have to suffer through a 3-13-1 season in 2021 first, they'd take it in a heartbeat. And when BH and DC came in, they knew what was going to happen in 2021. They said the right things publicly, about wanting to win (because of course they wanted to win), but in reality you had Tyrell Williams as your WR1 and Michael Brockers, Jamie Collins, Trey Flowers, and Jeff Okudah leading your defense. It was a tear down to the studs.

If the Raiders and Browns wanted to compete for a Super Bowl, and were willing to do what it takes, they would do the same. Rid the talent for the maximum draft capital you can acquire, resign yourself to 2-15 next season, and build from the ground up. Guys like Myles Garrett, Maxx Crosby, and Matt Stafford will keep you from going 2-15. You'll keep going 6-11, 7-10, maybe 9-8 or even 10-7 in a good year. But it comes at the expense of building an actual contender.

This is exactly what I was trying to say.  You probably said this better.

It use to dive me nuts that the Lions were always going through retooling with new regimes instead of a complete rebuilds.  I really think this Lions regime would of traded Stafford even if he didn't request a trade.  We'll never know but it just seemed like that is something Holmes would of wanted to do.  Now I am not sure they thought the rebuild would be this quick or that Goff was going to play this good.  Maybe I am wrong but I was just thinking he was a stop gap until they could draft their franchise QB.

Maybe Hendrickson is back as a potential after Cincy got killed by Philly

[Jimbo]

12 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

With multiple front offices too. It's not like we had the same fools drafting, we had several GMs who just didn't use the early picks we had to properly rebuild our team. Just look at all the QB we drafted...Chuck Long, Andre Ware, Charlie Batch, Joey "blue skies" Harrington...and probably a few I missed. And then the later picks that's been pointed out we missed on and you have the....SOL years (decades.)

Using our previous regimes is not a good reference.  You have to have confidence in your GM and scouts and if they get it wrong it doesn't matter because its not like a bunch of FA's are going to save your team or make it a SB contender.  The Lions aren't the only team that has become a good team after a bunch of draft picks.  Just look recently at Houston and how quick they made the turnaround after trading Watson.  Chicago should be better than they are.  Their roster is a playoff team, just not sure their coaches are good enough

[Motown Bombers]

Rule Uche out.

 

[KnoxP]

27 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Rule Uche out.

 

"...Rapoport also reported the Patriots will get a 2026 sixth-round draft pick from the Chiefs as part of the deal."

IF that's all it took, it has to follow that Holmes and Campbell did not want him and have their eyes on someone else.

[MichiganCardinal]

Uche was not a scheme fit. I doubt they even called on him.

[MichiganCardinal]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

But there is still another piece to it. You have to hit on your picks, and that's where it's not so easy to duplicate what Holmes has done. The lions have had lot of draft capital at times in the past because of losing seasons, but never used it as well as Holmes has.

Absolutely true. But every team thinks their guy is the guy. Trent Baalke wouldn't have a job otherwise. If you're an owner, you can't say "I would want to win a Super Bowl, but our GM probably has an 10-7 and divisional round ceiling, so that's okay with me."

You have to make decisions that will put your guy in a position to succeed. Mark Davis declaring Maxx Crosby untouchable doesn't do that. It puts his guy in that NFL purgatory of perpetual 7-10 to 10-7 seasons.

The one thing Martha did right was firing Jim Caldwell. People who said he was good enough were just resigned to thinking of the Lions alongside the Eastern Michigans of the world. 8-4 and a trip to the Bahamas Bowl is not the goal.

[MichiganCardinal]

2 hours ago, Jason_R said:

Eh… I’m not sure there are any lessons any other franchise could learn from the Lions. Hand off ownership control to the daughter of the former owner and poster boy for ownership ineptitude. Hire a former player for a job nobody could (or can) really define. Then hire a coach that wasn’t on anyone’s list of top coaching prospects for that cycle. Then hire a GM who wasn’t on anyone’s list of top GM prospects for that cycle. Then trade your franchise QB for a QB everyone was saying was washed up, along with some picks, to a team that believed it was just a QB away from a Super Bowl. 

This wasn’t a typical rebuild. It was not about draft capital. It was about a total reconstruction and realignment of the organization from top to bottom. And it was about some good fortune and good decisions along the way. 

There was certainly a cultural element to the Lions turnaround that can't be replicated by the Raiders or Browns, because they have their own uniquely bad culture. I do agree that they would need to fix that (in their own way) before they could have a tear down and see the kind of success the Lions have seen.

[Motown Bombers]

 

[MichiganCardinal]

 

[RedRamage]

I feel like if they're going to add help it needs to be very soon. If we want the help to be able to play against the Packers he needs to get in the building ASAP to get up to speed on the Lions scheme.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

The Bengals are 3-5. They are not making the playoffs after losing yesterday. Trey Hendrickson played with this coaching staff, both Campbell and Glenn in New Orleans. Trey Hendrickson also costs less than Crosby given his age. I really hope they're calling on Trey Hendrickson.

[Sports_Freak]

7 hours ago, Jimbo said:

Using our previous regimes is not a good reference.  You have to have confidence in your GM and scouts and if they get it wrong it doesn't matter because its not like a bunch of FA's are going to save your team or make it a SB contender.  The Lions aren't the only team that has become a good team after a bunch of draft picks.  Just look recently at Houston and how quick they made the turnaround after trading Watson.  Chicago should be better than they are.  Their roster is a playoff team, just not sure their coaches are good enough

Well, the Lions had multiple front offices. For years...they just couldn't ever get it right. Chicago hung onto their coach for some strange reason. He should have been fired at the end of last season, IMO.

[Sports_Freak]

5 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

 

 

[Sports_Freak]

How about Jeffery Simmons of the Titans? Any thoughts?

[MichiganCardinal]

15 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

How about Jeffery Simmons of the Titans? Any thoughts?

More of a DT. We have plenty of those. Theoretically possible but I’d be very surprised. He’s also overpaid for the level of play he’s brought since signing his massive extension.

[Sports_Freak]

3 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

More of a DT. We have plenty of those. Theoretically possible but I’d be very surprised. He’s also overpaid for the level of play he’s brought since signing his massive extension.

Well, whoever it is, I'm going to be excited. Brad has to make a deal, this could be our year....finally!

[Sports_Freak]

Smith seems to have a team friendly contract, affordable. At least, if this story is true. It sounds like he wants to play in Detroit. 

"He signed a two-year, $23.5 million deal this offseason to remain in Cleveland."

https://heavy.com/sports/nfl/cleveland-browns/zadarius-smith-trade-lions-imminent-garrett/

 

[Motown Bombers]

Smith seems like the best fit.