Voter Fraud is not the problem, ELECTION fraud is

[CMRivdogs]

 

[Motor City Sonics]

1 hour ago, CMRivdogs said:

 

I just want 11,780........er.......11,760 votes !

[chasfh]

On 10/23/2024 at 11:55 AM, CMRivdogs said:

 

And the moral of the story is: voter ID works.

[Tigeraholic1]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

And the moral of the story is: voter ID works.

Every state should require it.

[CMRivdogs]

14 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Every state should require it.

What states don't require some proof of citizenship. 
I'll listen on line

[Tigeraholic1]

5 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

What states don't require some proof of citizenship. 
I'll listen on line

https://ballotpedia.org/Voter_identification_laws_by_state

[CMRivdogs]

1 minute ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

https://ballotpedia.org/Voter_identification_laws_by_state

How many of these states make it extremely difficult to obtain a legal I'd, without having to pay $$$$ to correct errors or obtain things like a birth certificate.

I don't disagree that proper ID should be necessary but in many areas unless you are a  privileged white male obtaining the proper papers (whether name change, lost birth certificate, stolen ID) can be difficult because of  draconian laws.

[chasfh]

29 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Every state should require it.

I could be talked into it with the following conditions, at minimum:

• Voter ID is made available, proactively by the state and at taxpayers' expense, to every eligible voting citizen, bar none. Citizens eligible to vote should not have to bust their humps to try to obtain voter ID, and they should not be priced out of voting.
• Every voter should be required to have their ID and voting status confirmed at the voting booth, no exceptions. No getting a pass from the poll workers because they "know" you. They cannot have the personal discretion to approve or reject you on the spot. Your ID MUST be confirmed, no exceptions. If I show up, or you show up, or Donald Trump shows up, and the voter ID cannot be confirmed, then no vote. Period. No exceptions. And ID has to be confirmed somehow before vote-by-mail or online vote is allowed.

Maybe there are more conditions I would need to see to be talked into it, but these are the first two I can think of off the top of my head.

I'm not sure how these could be implemented, especially #2. Is voter ID a physical card? Can it be located on your phone like your medical card? Is there a counter-check on the poll worker's side to positively confirm, like a scanner gun tied to a state database? Can voters be processed as quickly as they are under no-voter-ID rules? How the heck can ID be confirmed for mail-in or online voting? I don't know, but just because I can't plan out and articulate exactly how these would work to a 100% complete degree to you right now in this post, does not mean they shouldn't be conditions in the first place. But my thing is, until these conditions can be locked down airtight, I don't think voter ID should be a requirement anywhere. Because the whole voter ID thing is far too easy to use as a tool to keep certain eligible voters the politicians in power don't like, or the poll workers don't like, from being able to cast a vote. Figure this out to my satisfaction, and you may have me on board with you.

 

Edited October 25, 2024 by chasfh

[Tigeraholic1]

2 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

How many of these states make it extremely difficult to obtain a legal I'd, without having to pay $$$$ to correct errors or obtain things like a birth certificate.

I don't disagree that proper ID should be necessary but in many areas unless you are a  privileged white male obtaining the proper papers (whether name change, lost birth certificate, stolen ID) can be difficult because of  draconian laws.

You asked. 

[CMRivdogs]

Just now, Tigeraholic1 said:

You asked. 

I'll ask another question then, how would you make it easier?
https://www.law.com/thelegalintelligencer/2021/08/13/identification-is-harder-to-obtain-than-you-think/?slreturn=20241025100955

[Tigeraholic1]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I could be talked into it with the following conditions, at minimum:

• Voter ID is made available, proactively by the state and at taxpayers' expense, to every eligible voting citizen, bar none. Citizens eligible to vote should not have to bust their humps to try to obtain voter ID, and they should not be priced out of voting.
• Every voter should be required to have their ID and voting status confirmed at the voting booth, no exceptions. No getting a pass from the poll workers because they "know" you. They cannot have the personal discretion to approve or reject you on the spot. Your ID MUST be confirmed, no exceptions. If I show up, or you show up, or Donald Trump shows up, and the voter ID cannot be confirmed, then no vote. Period. No exceptions. And ID has to be confirmed somehow before vote-by-mail or online vote is allowed.

Maybe there are more conditions I would need to see to be talked into it, but these are the first two I can think of off the top of my head.

I'm not sure how these could be implemented, especially #2. Is voter ID a physical card? Can it be located on your phone like your medical card? Is there a counter-check on the poll worker's side to positively confirm, like a scanner gun tied to a state database? Can voters be processed as quickly as they are under no-voter-ID rules? How the heck can ID be confirmed for mail-in or online voting? I don't know, but just because I can't plan out and articulate exactly how these would work to a 100% complete degree, does not mean they shouldn't be conditions in the first place. But my thing is, until these conditions can be locked down airtight, I don't think voter ID should be a requirement anywhere. Because the whole voter ID thing is far too easy to use as a tool to keep certain eligible voters the politicians in power don't like, or the poll workers don't like, from being able to cast a vote. Figure this out to my satisfaction, and you may have me on board with you.

 

Did we just become best friends? Spot on!

[chasfh]

1 minute ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Did we just become best friends? Spot on!

Do you agree these conditions would have to be met, or else there should not be a voter ID requirement at all?

[Tigeraholic1]

8 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

I'll ask another question then, how would you make it easier?
https://www.law.com/thelegalintelligencer/2021/08/13/identification-is-harder-to-obtain-than-you-think/?slreturn=20241025100955

Remember, I am the non-college educated evil american who wants to end freedom for all. I am 47 and lived in Michigan and Indiana all my life yet I have never heard of any protest to change our current voter ID laws because they are too hard. I personally have never met anyone who has been victimized by the law either. Thats all I got.

[pfife]

On that map Michigan says it requires ID but if you vote by mail you dont.   Not sure about that map.

[CMRivdogs]

5 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Remember, I am the non-college educated evil american who wants to end freedom for all. I am 47 and lived in Michigan and Indiana all my life yet I have never heard of any protest to change our current voter ID laws because they are too hard. I personally have never met anyone who has been victimized by the law either. Thats all I got.

Don't be so hard on yourself. You may have one or two good qualities. 

[Tigeraholic1]

9 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Do you agree these conditions would have to be met, or else there should not be a voter ID requirement at all?

I agree everyone should be able to get a photo ID from their state free of charge with proper documentaion.

[chasfh]

5 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Remember, I am the non-college educated evil american who wants to end freedom for all. I am 47 and lived in Michigan and Indiana all my life yet I have never heard of any protest to change our current voter ID laws because they are too hard. I personally have never met anyone who has been victimized by the law either. Thats all I got.

Would it only take someone you personally know being victimized by the law to get you to agree that the voter ID law be changed? Is that the only requirement you'll accept?

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

I agree everyone should be able to get a photo ID from their state free of charge with proper documentaion.

So by highlighting this and only this part, can we assume you want to require the voter undertake efforts to obtain the ID and not the state proactively seeking to provide them ID? And that you want to retain poll worker personal discretion to accept or reject the voter in front of them as they see fit, based on "that's OK, you can go in, I know who you are", or "not so fast, that's not enough, I need more?"

[CMRivdogs]

One of the things I could never understand for an ID here. When I applied for a Virginia drivers license they required my Social Security Card. The card itself says it should not be considered an ID. I mislaid my card while moving and forgot about it until the day of my DMV appointment (it was during COVID). I had my Michigan drivers license, also my passport. Both have pictures and are considered ID's.

It's stupid stuff like that that drives me nuts. Many businesses require a SS# for payroll and issue ID's with photos. Why can't that be good enough for state election officials. It all goes back to the days when only white land owing males could vote. 
 

Now that most everything is on line, proving citizenship should be easier. If you're an immigrant you should have voting privileges automatically bestowed. Same with natural born citizens, they should be automatically registered on their 18th birthday. 

[Tigeraholic1]

11 minutes ago, chasfh said:

So by highlighting this and only this part, can we assume you want to require the voter undertake efforts to obtain the ID and not the state proactively seeking to provide them ID? And that you want to retain poll worker personal discretion to accept or reject the voter in front of them as they see fit, based on "that's OK, you can go in, I know who you are", or "not so fast, that's not enough, I need more?"

Not gonna deep dive with you, sorry. As long as it is a state issue not much will change due to different requirments. Make it federal like SSN would be the best path.

[CMRivdogs]

Just now, Tigeraholic1 said:

Not gonna deep dive with you, sorry. As long as it is a state issue not much will change due to different requirments. Make it federal like SSN would be the best path.

I'd work with that. But keep in mind your SS card is not considered an ID per the SS Administration. 

[CMRivdogs]

He removed the state from the national organization that shares voting information, especially if a person has changed locations and legally registered to vote in their new residence. Like several Red governors

 https://www.wric.com/news/virginia-news/federal-judge-orders-virginia-to-halt-voter-removal-program-put-people-back-on-voter-rolls/?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co

[chasfh]

6 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Not gonna deep dive with you, sorry. As long as it is a state issue not much will change due to different requirments. Make it federal like SSN would be the best path.

I'm sure SSN would be part of the equation, although I don't think federal courts would uphold a federal voter ID law.

But if you want to make people chase the state around for ID, and also, leave confirmation up to poll worker discretion to accept or reject people on the spot instead of an airtight depersonalized confirmation system, then we part company on those.

[CMRivdogs]

We managed to make sure 18 year old males were all registered for the draft several years ago. (Is Selective Service still a thing?). I'm sure they could do something similar for voters.

[LaceyLou]

19 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

One of the things I could never understand for an ID here. When I applied for a Virginia drivers license they required my Social Security Card. The card itself says it should not be considered an ID. I mislaid my card while moving and forgot about it until the day of my DMV appointment (it was during COVID). I had my Michigan drivers license, also my passport. Both have pictures and are considered ID's.

It's stupid stuff like that that drives me nuts. Many businesses require a SS# for payroll and issue ID's with photos. Why can't that be good enough for state election officials. It all goes back to the days when only white land owing males could vote. 
 

Now that most everything is on line, proving citizenship should be easier. If you're an immigrant you should have voting privileges automatically bestowed. Same with natural born citizens, they should be automatically registered on their 18th birthday. 

When I got my real id this past summer, I had to have my birth certificate, SS card, and a copy of 2 bills with my address on them along with my old license-granted, it was because my old license had a different name (in MA you can put any name on your license as long as it's not to commit fraud so I had added my nickname), but that's still a lot of ID to have to chase down. From what I've heard, there's talk of making requirements such as having your current ID match your birth certificate exactly in order to vote, which would make it a nightmare for anybody with a legal name change-including women who take their husbands' names.

It seems like there are a few wrinkles that are going to be difficult to iron out.