Torkelson

[Sports_Freak]

  On 10/24/2024 at 9:37 PM, gehringer_2 said:

I wonder. I imagine Manning will still get a look, I think they just have nothing more to say about him. He has to produce. If he does, they'll find him room.

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I'm surprised they didn't bring him up to showcase him. Maybe the playoff race didn't allow it. It wouldn't surprise me if he's moved. Most teams are looking for pitching, even projects.

[monkeytargets39]

  On 10/24/2024 at 11:01 PM, chasfh said:

As long as we were to get positive wins out of the guy, I wouldn't care what his role is.

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Same.  It’d be a shame for him to not pan out as a front of the rotation starter, but it’d be downright miserable if we never find a successful role for him to contribute in.

 

Plenty of #1 overalls have been less than what Mize has been in his short career.

[monkeytargets39]

  On 10/25/2024 at 12:43 AM, Sports_Freak said:

I'm surprised they didn't bring him up to showcase him. Maybe the playoff race didn't allow it. It wouldn't surprise me if he's moved. Most teams are looking for pitching, even projects.

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I’m gonna assume that he 1.) he battled some injuries this year so they didn’t want to push him and 2.) he wasn’t improving on what they set out for him to work on so they weren’t going to reward it.  10 HRA in 69 IPs at Toledo is more of the same of what he struggled with last year.

Edited October 25, 2024 by monkeytargets39

[Sports_Freak]

  On 10/25/2024 at 12:52 AM, monkeytargets39 said:

I’m gonna assume that he 1.) he battled some injuries this year so they didn’t want to push him and 2.) he wasn’t improving on what they set out for him to work on so they weren’t going to reward it.  10 HRA in 69 IPs at Toledo is more of the same of what he struggled with last year.

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Hopefully, some team thinks they can fix him and offers up something good, IF Harris decides to move him.

[gehringer_2]

  On 10/25/2024 at 12:52 AM, monkeytargets39 said:

I’m gonna assume that he 1.) he battled some injuries this year so they didn’t want to push him and 2.) he wasn’t improving on what they set out for him to work on so they weren’t going to reward it.  10 HRA in 69 IPs at Toledo is more of the same of what he struggled with last year.

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he went the IL middle of July. Pitched only 9 innings across 3 starts in September for the Hens so his 2nd half was pretty much a loss.

[Jim Cowan]

  On 10/25/2024 at 1:47 AM, Sports_Freak said:

Hopefully, some team thinks they can fix him and offers up something good, IF Harris decides to move him.

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That's the hope for Mize and Manning, that teams have enough hubris to say about themselves "we can fix him" and swap their number 6 prospect, a righthanded hitting middle infielder with a glove and some power.

[gehringer_2]

  On 10/25/2024 at 9:20 AM, Jim Cowan said:

That's the hope for Mize and Manning, that teams have enough hubris to say about themselves "we can fix him" and swap their number 6 prospect, a righthanded hitting middle infielder with a glove and some power.

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Just remember, if the Braves call about a pitcher, say, “NO.”

[chasfh]

  On 10/25/2024 at 12:43 AM, Sports_Freak said:

I'm surprised they didn't bring him up to showcase him. Maybe the playoff race didn't allow it. It wouldn't surprise me if he's moved. Most teams are looking for pitching, even projects.

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There’s nothing to showcase. Matt Manning is broken.

[SoCalTiger]

  On 10/25/2024 at 12:25 PM, chasfh said:

There’s nothing to showcase. Matt Manning is broken.

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Manning, Mize and Torkelson. Trade them all for good (per our evaluaters) low level minor leaguers to clear room on the 40. They gave us next to nothing during our run and postseason so they will not be missed so continue to back fill the pipeline.

[chasfh]

  On 10/25/2024 at 4:19 PM, SoCalTiger said:

Manning, Mize and Torkelson. Trade them all for good (per our evaluaters) low level minor leaguers to clear room on the 40. They gave us next to nothing during our run and postseason so they will not be missed so continue to back fill the pipeline.

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If we do this—and I am definitely not opposed to it—I think we would just have to be comfortable with the idea that some or all of these three will kill it and maybe even become All Stars for someone else. Not everyone can be a good fit for even the best of systems, and some players would benefit most from a hands-off-just-play situation. I definitely believe that's Tork, for sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's the two pitchers as well.

[monkeytargets39]

  On 10/25/2024 at 4:19 PM, SoCalTiger said:

Manning, Mize and Torkelson. Trade them all for good (per our evaluaters) low level minor leaguers to clear room on the 40. They gave us next to nothing during our run and postseason so they will not be missed so continue to back fill the pipeline.

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Neither did Baez

[papalawrence]

Just a few years ago Mize and Manning were at the top of the rebuild. I'm still not completely off the Mize train, but 2025 has to be a productive year for both, and Tork, or it's time to move on. And I won't be surprised if Harris is already at that point

[Timmitch55]

Before his injuries and surgeries, Mize was really good. I still have high hopes for him. Hoping we hang on to him.

[SoCalTiger]

  On 10/25/2024 at 4:23 PM, chasfh said:

If we do this—and I am definitely not opposed to it—I think we would just have to be comfortable with the idea that some or all of these three will kill it and maybe even become All Stars for someone else. Not everyone can be a good fit for even the best of systems, and some players would benefit most from a hands-off-just-play situation. I definitely believe that's Tork, for sure, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's the two pitchers as well.

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That's always the risk for sure but the return should be credible as they still have value and maybe we won't lose a good prospect in the Rule 5 that could also come back to bite us. Additionally if we retain all three and they continue to falter do we jeopardize our 2025 season..especially if we do not add right-handed power waiting on Tork ? Tough decisions. Glad it's not me making them.

[gehringer_2]

  On 10/26/2024 at 4:57 PM, SoCalTiger said:

That's always the risk for sure but the return should be credible as they still have value and maybe we won't lose a good prospect in the Rule 5 that could also come back to bite us. Additionally if we retain all three and they continue to falter do we jeopardize our 2025 season..especially if we do not add right-handed power waiting on Tork ? Tough decisions. Glad it's not me making them.

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So, I'm less concerned about Torkelson, just because I think the situation will resolve itself more clearly. Bad starts in a second full season are sort of a common outcome - either he shows up in spring and has left it behind or the 31 HRs in '23 was just a fluke. Either way, I think the answer will become evident pretty quickly. With pitchers there are so many ways to go before you know if you are ever going to get anything: add pitches, drop pitches, move to relief, that I think it could end up being a more ambiguous decision with more chances to go wrong. 

But as noted above - I'm sort of resigned that if we can get Will Vest V2.0 out of him, maybe that's the end game.

[papalawrence]

This was Mize's first full season post TJ, correct? Not sure if this still holds true, but I used to always hear you get a much better picture of post TJ in year 2. He'll get his chance. Under team control 2 more years

[gehringer_2]

  On 10/26/2024 at 9:04 PM, papalawrence said:

This was Mize's first full season post TJ, correct? Not sure if this still holds true, but I used to always hear you get a much better picture of post TJ in year 2. He'll get his chance. Under team control 2 more years

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True it was his first year back, but he was a lot longer coming back than average so in terms of total time since surgery he is already a long way out

[Motor City Sonics]

  On 10/26/2024 at 9:45 PM, gehringer_2 said:

True it was his first year back, but he was a lot longer coming back than average so in terms of total time since surgery he is already a long way out

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I won't ever judge where a pitcher is in his first season back from TJ.    I will wait until next year to see where we are with Mize.   Unfortunately, the four starts before the  hamstring injury he was looking really good, like it was starting to click for him and after missing all that time he never got it back.    He's never going to be an ace, but he can still be a plus starter.  

[Arlington]

Tork playing in his Aug 2023 form would be huge for this team.  He certainly would get his chances against lefties hitting among Keith, Greene and Carpenter.  Grabbing a right-handed third baseman who could fill the void at 1st if Tork is moved would be an option. 

[papalawrence]

I think I'm kinda ready to say in Harris I trust, and that these issues are likely to work themselves out. I haven't thought that about Tigers leadership since Leyland and DD exited. Still fun to speculate on the changes needed.

[TcFlint]

Mize was longer coming back, however he also had back surgery right after tommy John surgery.  

Edited October 27, 2024 by TcFlint

[chasfh]

  On 10/26/2024 at 7:02 PM, gehringer_2 said:

So, I'm less concerned about Torkelson, just because I think the situation will resolve itself more clearly. Bad starts in a second full season are sort of a common outcome - either he shows up in spring and has left it behind or the 31 HRs in '23 was just a fluke. Either way, I think the answer will become evident pretty quickly. With pitchers there are so many ways to go before you know if you are ever going to get anything: add pitches, drop pitches, move to relief, that I think it could end up being a more ambiguous decision with more chances to go wrong. 

But as noted above - I'm sort of resigned that if we can get Will Vest V2.0 out of him, maybe that's the end game.

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I don’t know whether a team can win with a Tork (at least as currently constructed) at first base year after year. He might end up hitting a couple hundred homers, but if he’s always hanging around 1 WAR or so every season, how can that help spark a team? I’m trying to think of an equivalent—maybe Eric Karros? He had a couple good years but he was mostly an anchor for an otherwise mostly decent team, and he went to the playoffs only three times in his 14-year career. The Dodgers wasted the entire 90s keeping him around. I don’t want that to be Tork’s legacy here. I don’t know of any franchise who could keep a barely average first baseman around and win playoffs series year after year. I think you really do need big production from first base to win.

[Shinzaki]

This stuff about Tork working on hitting shapes is..interesting.  Max Clark referenced training that on his X feed.  Maybe that's supplanted Launch Angle as the  new fad?

[Arlington]

I wonder if there is a regimen for strengthening the ability to hit shapes.

 

[SeattleMike]

  On 10/25/2024 at 4:19 PM, SoCalTiger said:

Manning, Mize and Torkelson. Trade them all for good (per our evaluaters) low level minor leaguers to clear room on the 40. They gave us next to nothing during our run and postseason so they will not be missed so continue to back fill the pipeline.

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After Tork returned from minors and Greene the IL, Tork had a 125 OPS+, only one point worse than Greene. So not accurate to say he contributed next to nothing to the playoff run. That's not to say he is a long-term solution at 1B.