Michigan's Hamlet-like debate about its own soul re: transfers and NIL

[romad1]

I'm interested in this.  My hope is that Michigan becomes smarter about this.  My own experience was that I was the youngest of 5 kids of the CPA, who had to go off the Air Force and transfer in with credits from Schoolcraft College, the Community College of the Air Force and University of Maryland's European campus.   Ask me about my credits from CCAF and how little they figured in the Michigan transfer -- nor really should they have (I have credits in "Vehicle Operations" and "Joint Fires Planning")

 

[gehringer_2]

16 minutes ago, romad1 said:

I'm interested in this.  My hope is that Michigan becomes smarter about this.  My own experience was that I was the youngest of 5 kids of the CPA, who had to go off the Air Force and transfer in with credits from Schoolcraft College, the Community College of the Air Force and University of Maryland's European campus.   Ask me about my credits from CCAF and how little they figured in the Michigan transfer -- nor really should they have (I have credits in "Vehicle Operations" and "Joint Fires Planning")

 

still, the comment by Fisher is apples and oranges. A middle class kid looking for an education to get ahead is not comparable in any academic sense to an athlete that simply wants to use the U as step toward a professional athletic career that has little to nothing to do with his academic experience per se. The former comes to the U with the objective of pulling himself up to the academic standard, does the latter?

I can easily see admissions not being swayed by such an argument.

Edited January 9, 2022 by gehringer_2

[romad1]

5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

still, the comment by Fisher is apples and oranges. A middle class kid looking for an education to get ahead is not comparable in any academic sense to an athlete that simply wants to use the U as step toward a professional athletic career that has little to nothing to do with his academic experience per se. The former comes to the U with the objective of pulling himself up to the academic standard, does the latter?

I can easily see admissions not being swayed by such an argument.

They probably won't do allowing all of your Bumfluff Red State Teecherz and Preecherz Colledge credits to transfer for a guy who wants a degree in Doctorin'

[gehringer_2]

If they want to prevent tension with academics, then just hire the athletes as staff. If they are being paid they are pros, so that's were this is all going anyway. At some point the duck rule needs to be applied.

Edited January 9, 2022 by gehringer_2

[romad1]

I had the same guy who gave me the "Jim's waiting to sign the contract" inside dope asked me if I had an opinion about them loosening the transfer rules from 60 credit max.

[buddha]

michigan taking a working class kid over a mediocre rich kid is more of the myth michigan people like to believe.  michigan takes as many donors' kids, rich kids, and kids from hoity toity east coast private academies as anyone other top university.

i like mgoblog, but those guys get a little annoying sometimes with their um homerdom.

[gehringer_2]

21 minutes ago, buddha said:

michigan taking a working class kid over a mediocre rich kid is more of the myth michigan people like to believe.  michigan takes as many donors' kids, rich kids, and kids from hoity toity east coast private academies as anyone other top university.

i like mgoblog, but those guys get a little annoying sometimes with their um homerdom.

it's never been a secret there are legacy points in the admissions scoring. The big problem for all colleges is the other end. Unlike in the immediate post WWII US, the quality of publics schools has become much more tightly correlated to the wealth of the local district. This probably has less to do with anything the colleges have done as much as with the dissolution of structured family life across working class America. So college preparedness has become another have vs have not economic issue. 

Colleges can and do take on students that need remediation but it's a big effort and will not likely ever be a big % of a student body. To fix the problem look less to the end of the chain and more to the base. We need to improve working class public ed in the US not only for that but for all the other equity issues involved.

[buddha]

34 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

it's never been a secret there are legacy points in the admissions scoring. The big problem for all colleges is the other end. Unlike in the immediate post WWII US, the quality of publics schools has become much more tightly correlated to the wealth of the local district. This probably has less to do with anything the colleges have done as much as with the dissolution of structured family life across working class America. So college preparedness has become another have vs have not economic issue. 

Colleges can and do take on students that need remediation but it's a big effort and will not likely ever be a big % of a student body. To fix the problem look less to the end of the chain and more to the base. We need to improve working class public ed in the US not only for that but for all the other equity issues involved.

sure, but lets not lie to ourselves that michigan takes working class strivers over rich mediocre kids as some sort of guiding principle. that's a myth.

michigan people have a very over inflated opinion of michigan's "working class" sensibilities.

also, as a side note, it is an interesting shift in what america values that michigan grads would think that's something to be proud of.  100 years ago it likely would have been an insult.

[romad1]

25 minutes ago, buddha said:

sure, but lets not lie to ourselves that michigan takes working class strivers over rich mediocre kids as some sort of guiding principle. that's a myth.

michigan people have a very over inflated opinion of michigan's "working class" sensibilities.

also, as a side note, it is an interesting shift in what america values that michigan grads would think that's something to be proud of.  100 years ago it likely would have been an insult.

lots of loaded language 

[romad1]

I appreciate the point about the myth of middle class merit

[buddha]

13 minutes ago, romad1 said:

lots of loaded language 

how so?

[romad1]

17 minutes ago, buddha said:

how so?

"working class" would imply that applicants are Dickensian poor -- not kids of dual-income household professionals who likely have spent an occasional extra nickle to get their kid some testing help.  Or, are they "bloated plutocrats?"  

Edited January 9, 2022 by romad1

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

sure, but lets not lie to ourselves that michigan takes working class strivers over rich mediocre kids as some sort of guiding principle. that's a myth.

michigan people have a very over inflated opinion of michigan's "working class" sensibilities.

 

I don't think it's a myth at all because I don't think anyone at the U or anywhere else thinks that. We are well aware our incoming classes are mostly from very well-off backgrounds. We don't attract that much 1%er aristocracy like the Ivies but only the minority of our students (at least in Engin) are from families that ever pinched their pennies.

Edited January 9, 2022 by gehringer_2

[romad1]

52 minutes ago, romad1 said:

"working class" would imply that applicants are Dickensian poor -- not kids of dual-income household professionals who likely have spent an occasional extra nickle to get their kid some testing help.  Or, are they "bloated plutocrats?"  

 

11 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I don't think it's a myth at all because I don't anyone at the U or anywhere else thinks that. We are well aware our incoming classes are mostly from very well-off backgrounds. We don't attract that much 1%er aristocracy like the Ivies but only the minority of our students (at least in Engin) are from families that ever pinched their pennies.

Yeah, the very definition of people who are heavily engaged in civics, communities.  

[buddha]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

I don't think it's a myth at all because I don't think anyone at the U or anywhere else thinks that. We are well aware our incoming classes are mostly from very well-off backgrounds. We don't attract that much 1%er aristocracy like the Ivies but only the minority of our students (at least in Engin) are from families that ever pinched their pennies.

well then we agree.  you should let seth from mgoblog - which was the tweet posted by romad with which i disagreed - know.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

well then we agree.  you should let seth from mgoblog - which was the tweet posted by romad with which i disagreed - know.

mgoblue blog would pretty much be the sports equivalent of cable news wouldn't it?  🙄

Edited January 10, 2022 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

mgoblue blog would pretty much be the sports equivalent of cable news wouldn't it?  🙄

i like mgoblog, they're just homers.

although brian had some sort of nervous breakdown after last year.  this year has been good for his mental health, at least.

[romad1]

MGOBLOG does a lot of really good detailed  analysis.  Smarter fan is a better fan.   The UFR of the OSU game offensive gameplan was Shakespearian.  

Upon Further Review 2021: Offense vs. Ohio State | mgoblog

Edited January 10, 2022 by romad1

[romad1]

2 minutes ago, romad1 said:

MGOBLOG does a lot of really good detailed  analysis.  Smarter fan is a better fan.   The UFR of the OSU game offensive gameplan was Shakespearian.  

Upon Further Review 2021: Offense vs. Ohio State | mgoblog

e.g., 

Quote

Drive Notes: Punt. 7-3. 11 min 2nd Q. So much of the progress that would define the 20th century, on both sides of the Atlantic, came down to the battle for a slice of beach only six miles long and two miles wide.

Quote

Drive Notes: Touchdown. 14-7. 3 min 2nd Q. They're murdering us here. Let's move inland and get murdered. (Next drive is a one-play Haskins run to get to halftime and not charted)

Quote

Drive Notes: Touchdown. 28-13. 5 min 3rd Q. Hitler made only big mistake when he built his Atlantic Wall. He forgot to put a roof on it.

 

[romad1]

Some really good stuff here

On Harbaugh Watch 2022 | mgoblog

[gehringer_2]

24 minutes ago, romad1 said:

Some really good stuff here

On Harbaugh Watch 2022 | mgoblog

He is going or not going because it will be where he decides he wants to be, I doubt it will have much of anything to do  with any contract negotiations at UM.

[djhutch]

I think the position, in Harbaugh's mind, trumps any concerns over transfers/NIL - IF he goes to the NFL, it will be because he has the drive to prove himself once again.  I think leaving SF the way he did left a bad taste in his mouth.

[romad1]

24 minutes ago, djhutch said:

I think the position, in Harbaugh's mind, trumps any concerns over transfers/NIL - IF he goes to the NFL, it will be because he has the drive to prove himself once again.  I think leaving SF the way he did left a bad taste in his mouth.

Because the NFL is superior? 

[buddha]

i think harbaugh wants to be at michigan but sees that he needs the ability to compete at michigan.  if they dont change the rules on nil, and dont give him more leeway on transfers in the portal, michigan will fall further behind.

he'll likely get his nil changes, but the portal?  i doubt the admissions department will change for the whims of the football team.  i mean, they have surely bent in the past and have accumstomed to bending to allow a's in high school gym and archery let kids into michigan who have no business being there, but now they need to bend to let in kids who dont really go to high school into school, and to let in transfers who have been majoring in underwater basket weaving (and likely getting c's) into school.

they'll do it, but it will take the institution time to move.  harbaugh needs it to move now.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

i think harbaugh wants to be at michigan but sees that he needs the ability to compete at michigan.  if they dont change the rules on nil, and dont give him more leeway on transfers in the portal, michigan will fall further behind.

he'll likely get his nil changes, but the portal?  i doubt the admissions department will change for the whims of the football team.  i mean, they have surely bent in the past and have accumstomed to bending to allow a's in high school gym and archery let kids into michigan who have no business being there, but now they need to bend to let in kids who dont really go to high school into school, and to let in transfers who have been majoring in underwater basket weaving (and likely getting c's) into school.

they'll do it, but it will take the institution time to move.  harbaugh needs it to move now.

I don't think that is how it's going to work. M may take some marginal step by itself, but they are not going to change all their SOP, coach or not. There will be a group - prob with Wisc, ILL, PSU and OSU maybe being pulled along in spite of itself, that will move to a new set of operating guidelines to together and pull the rest of conference, and maybe even the Pac12 or another conference here or there along with them. No league anywhere survives with everyone playing under different rules - if there is going to be a league/conference its members will setup a more or less uniform system for all. And that may take a lot of time and haggling before the sausage gets pushed into the casing. And Harbaugh knows full well that is how it will have to work.