2022 Michigan Elections

[1984Echoes]

21 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Not at all. I was pushing back on the implication that the reason we do not have European socialism in America today is because ultra-liberals ruined the possibility for us.

Right.. but that's an earlier quote.

What I'm saying is the quote you took from MB, he was referencing Republicans only who are grifters who do nothing but bad mouth Dems with their outrage politics.

Unless I'M misreading MB's quote and he is actually referencing Bernie et al as the grifters? That could be it... 

OK... I think I get it now...

[1984Echoes]

Yeah, that needs pushback.

Bernie et al IS European socialism. Dumb to think he is bringing it down... even if he does often attack or be counterproductive to Dems.

No... it is SQUARELY on Republicans for tearing constantly at European socialism (conflated specifically with "socialized" medicine) loudly and successfully.

[Motown Bombers]

I think both Bernie Sanders and MAGA are grifters. These presidential runs have been financially beneficial for Sanders. He makes it clear he's not a Democrat until he wants to run for president. He's accomplished nothing but name post offices. How many post offices are left in Vermont? He constantly undermines Democrats and brought us the likes of Tulsi, Nina Turner and Briahana Joy Gray and David Sirota.

Joe Manchin has done more for climate than Sanders. Bernie Sanders tried to sabotage the IRA by sticking in amendments who knew wouldn't pass but forced Democrats to vote no on things they support. This allows Bernie Sanders to grift on his moral superiority and show that the establishment voted against all these things. Hillary was right about him.

[1984Echoes]

25 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I think both Bernie Sanders and MAGA are grifters. These presidential runs have been financially beneficial for Sanders. He makes it clear he's not a Democrat until he wants to run for president. He's accomplished nothing but name post offices. How many post offices are left in Vermont? He constantly undermines Democrats and brought us the likes of Tulsi, Nina Turner and Briahana Joy Gray and David Sirota.

Joe Manchin has done more for climate than Sanders. Bernie Sanders tried to sabotage the IRA by sticking in amendments who knew wouldn't pass but forced Democrats to vote no on things they support. This allows Bernie Sanders to grift on his moral superiority and show that the establishment voted against all these things. Hillary was right about him.

Which has nothing to do with American hatred/ vilification of European socialism... the original topic that was under discussion...

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

Which has nothing to do with American hatred/ vilification of European socialism... the original topic that was under discussion...

Sure it does. Bernie Sanders is the face of socialism and he does nothing but undermine Democrats and get nothing done. The goal isn't to legislate but to take down Democrats. Bernie Sanders was out there trashing the IRA days before midterms and saying Democrats need to quit messaging on abortion. The socialist movement has parallels with the MAGA movement. Remember it was Bernie Sanders whining about rigged elections before Donald Trump. He's driving away even moderate Democrats from socialist policies because they don't want to be associated with Bernie Sanders.

[1984Echoes]

I think that's a reach...

I don't agree with that take...

[Jim Cowan]

Universal health care is the most centrist policy that you could adopt, but Bernie screams that it is "democratic socialism" which virtually assures that you will never have it.  He isn't the only reason of course, there are billions being creamed off in profits under the current arrangements and Republicans will fight hard on behalf of those donors.  But Bernie is not helping, he is a hindrance.

[CMRivdogs]

1 hour ago, Jim Cowan said:

Universal health care is the most centrist policy that you could adopt, but Bernie screams that it is "democratic socialism" which virtually assures that you will never have it.  He isn't the only reason of course, there are billions being creamed off in profits under the current arrangements and Republicans will fight hard on behalf of those donors.  But Bernie is not helping, he is a hindrance.

I tend to agree on health care. That said our current Medicare system is completely F-UP. You almost need a masters in economics to figure out the health plans for anything beyond basic coverage. That whole system has turned into a big money grab for hospital systems and giant pharma. 
 

Nobody needs to be paying $2000 a month for prescriptions that may or may not help you in the long and have side effects that could possibly kill you in the end 

[Jim Cowan]

3 hours ago, CMRivdogs said:

I tend to agree on health care. That said our current Medicare system is completely F-UP. You almost need a masters in economics to figure out the health plans for anything beyond basic coverage. That whole system has turned into a big money grab for hospital systems and giant pharma. 
 

Nobody needs to be paying $2000 a month for prescriptions that may or may not help you in the long and have side effects that could possibly kill you in the end 

It all seems so hopeless.  By the way, Ontario has prescription drug coverage for those over 64, and those under 25 who aren't in an employer's plan, but everybody else is on their own.  We also don't have dental, or eye tests, or chiropractic, or a whole bunch of other nonsense that Bernie was also raving about.

Here's what we do have:  a visit to a doctor is free, including referral to a specialist, and hospitalization (and the cost of any surgery and medications in the hospital) is free.  That's it.  But that's gold as far as I'm concerned.  If have that, I can handle the rest.  

Bernie knows it too, he deliberately raves about ridiculously expensive proposals that he knows will not succeed, which keeps him on brand as the crusader for the masses.  He's a clown.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Jim Cowan

[chasfh]

It’s a little amazing that we even have a version of universal health care for old people, since Ronald Reagan anchored the public conservative position against it more than 60 years ago. They’ve been fighting it on every detail ever since, and had to be shouted over to even get Medicare passed. It was voted down multiple times until LBJ dragged it across the finish line on his coattails in 1965.

What’s not as amazing is how it’s been subsequently watered down in the way CMRivdogs has noted.

[Motown Bombers]

8 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

It all seems so hopeless.  By the way, Ontario has prescription drug coverage for those over 64, and those under 25 who aren't in an employer's plan, but everybody else is on their own.  We also don't have dental, or eye tests, or chiropractic, or a whole bunch of other nonsense that Bernie was also raving about.

Here's what we do have:  a visit to a doctor is free, including referral to a specialist, and hospitalization (and the cost of any surgery and medications in the hospital) is free.  That's it.  But that's gold as far as I'm concerned.  If have that, I can handle the rest.  

Bernie knows it too, he deliberately raves about ridiculously expensive proposals that he knows will not succeed, which keeps him on brand as the crusader for the masses.  He's a clown.

Many prescription drugs are cheaper in Canada so paying out of pocket isn't as big of a deal. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

I find it hilarious that people criticize Bernie Sanders on healthcare when the person who really set us back on healthcare in America was Hillary Clinton and her massive failure on Hillarycare in the 1990s. Clinton, as with many things in her life, completely failed to get a healthcare passed and we just conveniently ignore that here. It took almost 20 years for Democrats to recover on the issue of healthcare policy and messaging thanks to Hillary's failures on healthcare in the 1990s.

Speaking of grifters, Hillary and Bill Clinton are the biggest grifters of them all. It ain't Bernie Sanders whose going around giving $500,000 paid speeches to Blackrock Investments, Goldman Sachs, and JP Morgan Chase. Hillary used her status as a former Senator and Secretary of State to grift tens-of-millions of dollars in paid Wall Street Speeches. Her husband grifted himself $15,000,000 in payments from Ron Burkle and got himself a lucrative job as an Honorary Chancellor at a college for a cool $18,000,000. What work Clinton actually did for that college, who knows.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Motown Bombers]

42 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I find it hilarious that people criticize Bernie Sanders on healthcare when the person who really set us back on healthcare in America was Hillary Clinton and her massive failure on Hillarycare in the 1990s. Clinton, as with many things in her life, completely failed to get a healthcare passed and we just conveniently ignore that here. It took almost 20 years for Democrats to recover on the issue of healthcare policy and messaging thanks to Hillary's failures on healthcare in the 1990s.

Speaking of grifters, Hillary and Bill Clinton are the biggest grifters of them all. It ain't Bernie Sanders whose going around giving $500,000 paid speeches to Blackrock Investments, Goldman Sachs, and JP Morgan Chase. Hillary used her status as a former Senator and Secretary of State to grift tens-of-millions of dollars in paid Wall Street Speeches. Her husband grifted himself $15,000,000 in payments from Ron Burkle and got himself a lucrative job as an Honorary Chancellor at a college for a cool $18,000,000. What work Clinton actually did for that college, who knows.

LOL what about Hillary. Another thing Bernie Bros have in common with MAGA. Blame the first lady instead of the elected official who has been in congress for over 30 years and hasn't come close to passing any health care bill. Bernie Sanders didn't co-sponsor the Health Security Act but instead pushed for a single payer that had no hope of passing and undermined what the Hillary was proposing. Bernie Sanders has been in congress since 1991 and yet you don't call him for failing to get any health care legislation passed. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

I remember Bernie Sanders working with John McCain to spearhead reform of the Veterans Administration after it was rocked by scandal and poor service provided to American Veterans. Unless VA Reform with John McCain doesn't count now as major healthcare legislation.

Also, while Bernie has failed to pass Medicare For All, he's advanced the narrative on healthcare as a universal right in a major way in this country and changed the narrative more than Hillarycare did or more than Hillary did in 2008 or 2016 when running for President. Who in mainstream, American politics was talking about single payer and government run healthcare as an option pre-Bernie 2015? Now we have a majority of Americans who support a government-run healthcare system and that support will only grow as Millennials and Gen Z begin to take over politics. It's just a numbers game, as more and more younger people who support Medicare For All enter into national politics and elected office, we'll have a single-payer like system at some point. Now, that may not be directly because of Bernie Sanders vote or spearhead of the legislation. But you cannot deny that he has influenced a generation of young elected leaders coming up in politics who now support single payer and Medicare For All.

Also, you called Sanders a grifter while ignoring every Clinton grift for the last 20 years from payments from Ron Burkle to pardoning a career crook in Mark Rich to having to give back hundreds-of-thousands of dollars of illegally fundraised money from Chinese foreign nationals to being paid over $150 million in Wall Street and corporate speeches. I would say that at least Bernie hasn't compromised his values and selling out like Hillary and Bill Clinton, but that would presume that her and Bubba had any real values to being with, but they do not. Sticking your finger in the political wind to calculate the position you should take on every issue on the political spectrum doesn't count as a value and isn't worth anything. But sure, ok, Bernie is the real grifter in Democratic circles, not Hillary and Bubba.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Motown Bombers]

Hillary's speeches are to Bernie Bros what Hillary's emails are to MAGA. No curiosity why Bernie Sanders net worth tripled since pretending to be a Democrat and running for office or Jane Sanders bankrupting a school and buying vacation properties. We haven't even got to Sanders admiration for Fidel Castro and the people he hired in his campaign supporting Russian talking points or how one of his fellows became a full on Russian asset.

[romad1]

Ugh...you guys.