12/7/24 7:30PM Pistons @ Knicks

[RandyMarsh]

The Pistons would obviously get trucked by the Celtics or Cavs but if they could somehow get the 6 seed I think they could make a series out of whomever they get there.  

[Deleterious]

It does pain me that Cade grew up going to Cowboy training camps with Jerry Jones grandson.

 

[Hart]

Cool to see Cade have a game like this.  The Pistons are closer to breaking thru as an actual good team if he can do it more consistently.  It doesn't need to be 15 assists.  If he can keep it to 3 turnovers or less, that would be wonderful.   Either way, the franchise player we all hoped for when he was drafted seems closer to reality now.  

[Deleterious]

Still a terrible team. They looked awful every time Cade sat down last night.

[Betrayer]

On 12/7/2024 at 8:31 AM, RandyMarsh said:

I think the problem with Duren is that even if he does develop a bit you then are gonna have to pay him.

Has the makings of another Drummond situation so if we could find away to get rid of him now and not have to worry about that I would be all for it. 

Repeating a Drummond situation is my concern as well. I don't want to invest a lot of money in a Center that can't shoot or defend just because we waited too long to make a decision. It was a bad idea back then and it's an even worse idea in today's NBA.

[Betrayer]

2 hours ago, Deleterious said:

Still a terrible team. They looked awful every time Cade sat down last night.

Ivey had a really rough stretch in there before JB was forced to bring Cade back in to stop the bleeding. They just don't have anyone they can run the offense through when Cade's out. There's no 1B star. All of these vets are role players and Ivey is really hit or miss with the ball in his hands.

Question is, do you play it out and hope for lottery luck to get that 1B player or do you consolidate some assets to trade for him? They'll probably make that decision in the next two months depending upon the standings.

[Hart]

I don't disagree that we are not a good team right now and that there is no 1B star.  But finding a 1A star is the hardest part of building a team.  If we have that guy, that's a big deal.  You can fill in the rest of the pieces as you go.    

[casimir]

I’ll take some credit for this victory.  I walked by MSG a couple of weeks ago and I was wearing my Detroit (Tigers) hat.  You’re all welcome.

[Deleterious]

He isn't untouchable.  But you would have to overpay me to get Ivey.

He still is not a good defender.  But you can see the effort is there and good coaching can turn that into a viable defender.  I would be shocked if he isn't a plus defender in a couple of years.

BTW, Cade is shooting 39% from three.  These two can definitely play together.

 

[NYLion]

On 12/7/2024 at 11:13 PM, buddha said:

at this rate beasley might get us a first rounder at the deadline.

of course, we wont teade him because we really want to make the play-in game...  hooray for the 8th (or 10th) seed!

Why not? The group needs to learn to win at some point, and nobody is paying a 1st for Beasley anyway so might as well keep him for the season and try to extend him, he's only 28.

Edited December 10, 2024 by NYLion

[Betrayer]

22 hours ago, Deleterious said:

He isn't untouchable.  But you would have to overpay me to get Ivey.

He still is not a good defender.  But you can see the effort is there and good coaching can turn that into a viable defender.  I would be shocked if he isn't a plus defender in a couple of years.

BTW, Cade is shooting 39% from three.  These two can definitely play together.

This was a best case scenario. Now you can get far more for him in a trade than you would have after the Monty season. Sadly, the opposite happened with Duren and his value has diminished.

I'm a fan of Ivey, but as of right now I'd start Beasley over him. And if I'm thinking about the future, then I want to reap the benefits of a 6'6" PG by having a long, switchable starting 5. Maybe you can run Ivey as your bench scorer in that scenario, but he's clearly not a PG and I don't want to give him a Jalen Green level extension this offseason for a Malik Monk role.

Depends upon what trades are out there because I'm certainly not giving him away, but I'm not asking for an Ainge return either because I'm still not sure I like the composition of this core for getting into the top half of the East in the next couple years.

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, Betrayer said:

I'm a fan of Ivey, but as of right now I'd start Beasley over him. And if I'm thinking about the future, then I want to reap the benefits of a 6'6" PG by having a long, switchable starting 5.

Are you saying Beasley is 'longer' than Ivey? or do you just mean a long term solution that doesn't include either?

 

[Deleterious]

5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Are you saying Beasley is 'longer' than Ivey? or do you just mean a long term solution that doesn't include either?

 

I think he means Cade.

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, Deleterious said:

I think he means Cade.

right - as the PG, but then I translate the rest as  "long players to go with him and that's not Ivey." But to me then it follows not Beasley either.

[Deleterious]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

right - as the PG, but then I translate the rest as  "long players to go with him and that's not Ivey." But to me then it follows not Beasley either.

Oh.  That part he means not Stewart lol

[buddha]

6 hours ago, NYLion said:

Why not? The group needs to learn to win at some point, and nobody is paying a 1st for Beasley anyway so might as well keep him for the season and try to extend him, he's only 28.

i think the pistons will "learn to win" when they have enough talent to win.  if beasley has playes his way out of a contract in detroit, they should deal him if the deal is right.

[NYLion]

16 hours ago, buddha said:

i think the pistons will "learn to win" when they have enough talent to win.  if beasley has playes his way out of a contract in detroit, they should deal him if the deal is right.

Of course if they get offered a 1st it should be heavily considered but at some point the perpetual spinning of the wheels in the rebuild has to stop. Not that Beasley alone vaults the Pistons into contention but it's vital to have vets like his to help the team take the next step and I don't think it's a coincidence that Cade's assist numbers have shot up with a competent shooter like Beasley flanking him, Ivey's improved 3 has also helped. 

What I'd do if I was Langdon is talk extension with him before the trade deadline to get a feel if he's interested in staying at a reasonable price. If not then, yeah, they should probably trade him. Just not sure that a fairly one dimensional shooter is worth much, we saw what Bogey and Burks were worth although I do think Beasley has been a better fit than both of those guys.

[Betrayer]

19 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Are you saying Beasley is 'longer' than Ivey? or do you just mean a long term solution that doesn't include either?

 

I mean that in the short term the Pistons are better when Beasley is on the court and in the long term I'd like to see a longer, more switchable lineup to take advantage of Cade's size...so where does that leave Ivey?

Do you extend him for big money this offseason and lock in this duo as your 1A and 1B players going forward? As much as I like Ivey, I'm not sure I see that future working out.

You also have to consider the fact that you probably can't afford to extend all of these high draft picks for the next three years. At some point you have to consolidate and waiting too long often means being stuck with a bad signing (Drummond), having to sell low (Duren), or just cutting the player when the value bottoms out (Killian).

The other option is to use his success this season to package him in a trade to bring in that 1B star, move up in the draft to get that player, or acquire future picks that could be packaged for a 1B star later on.

I'm not saying give up or sell low on Ivey, I'm just saying if I was GM I would have my eyes open for the right deal if it came along.

Edited December 11, 2024 by Betrayer

[gehringer_2]

14 minutes ago, Betrayer said:

I mean that in the short term the Pistons are better when Beasley is on the court and in the long term I'd like to see a longer, more switchable lineup to take advantage of Cade's size...so where does that leave Ivey?

Ok, that parses better than the way I read it at first! To me it should come down to his shooting. In today's league if a guy with Ivey's athleticism can become a real shooting threat, you want him.

Edited December 11, 2024 by gehringer_2

[Deleterious]

I would offer Ivey $30M per this summer and willing to go up to $35M per, but if he wants higher it would have to wait and see how he performs next summer.  

This assumes he continues at his current level of play.

[Deleterious]

As far as Beasley goes.  I think  he has move value than Bogie did.  Younger and more important, much cheaper.  Not a lot of people can trade for a $20M contract.  Pretty much everyone can trade for a $7M contract.  More competition = more value, hopefully.

Pretty easy to decide on trading him or not.  Do they have a shot at the playoffs?  If yes, keep him.  If no, trade him.

[Betrayer]

On 12/11/2024 at 12:37 PM, Deleterious said:

I would offer Ivey $30M per this summer and willing to go up to $35M per, but if he wants higher it would have to wait and see how he performs next summer.  

This assumes he continues at his current level of play.

Nah, I'll pass on that.

December 15th is right around the corner, and every game is pushing me more and more towards the "trade him now" side of the fence as he trends downward from his hot start. Last night's game against Boston was a shinning example of this.

I want a bigger 3 and D player at the other guard spot. Not someone who's going to be a small'ish average defender (at best), an inconsistent 3 point shooter, and a guy who turns it over too much for his role.

He'll be a fine 6th man candidate someday for a team who already has their stars in place, but paying him to be the #2 player in this core isn't it.

I was pretty excited on draft day, but this past offseason I said that they needed to trade at least one these 2022 guys before they become extension eligible. If anything, the clarity that we now have about these guys after seeing them on a semi-competent team has only served to solidify that viewpoint for me.

[Deleterious]

If you had told me on draft night 3 years ago that Ivey would be scoring 17 ppg and shooting almost 37% from three in game 25 of season 3, I would have jumped for joy.  Those are solid numbers for a third year player.  Jaylen Brown was something like 13 ppg and 33% his third year.

If he continues to develop he has a nice shot at being a 20-22 PPG player that shoots 38%-40% from three next year.  That is a $30M a year guy all day.  Especially since we already know the cap will rise by 10% each year for the next 3-4 years due to the new TV contract.  By year 2 and 3 of a $30M a year deal he will be making less than 15% of the cap.  Even if things go totally wrong, that contract doesn't hurt you at all.  Plus, on the chance he does hit the numbers are projected,  you just saved $15M a year because at those numbers he gets a lot more expensive than $30M a year.

So whats an Ivey trade look like?  He wont bring back a lottery pick, at least not for the next two years.  The drafts are too good and people will demand lottery protection the picks.  So a trade wont bring help until a few years from now at best.  Not real 

Ivey wont bring back a star in a trade.  Even packaged with other Pistons, there isn't enough to put together a trade for a star.  So a trade seems like a lateral move at best.

The time to trade everyone was this past summer.  That includes at least listening to Cade trade offers.  I said this summer that being bad enough not to make the playoffs but good enough not to secure the 5th pick is the worst possible position to be in.  Here we are.  Bad odds at obtaining a top pick.  No cap space.  Players with some trade value, but not likely to bring back anything special.  Coming up on two decades of it now.

[Betrayer]

I agree about your draft night reaction and I had Ivey #2 on my board. I recall making the Jalen Brown comps as well, but in practice I'm seeing that his lack of height and defense will always keep him from hitting that type of ceiling. Malik Monk may be his actual outcome and Monk is getting about 20M/yr at 12% of the cap as their 4th best guy.

Seeing how he fits with a team that is already inconsistent, poor defensively, and turnover prone doesn't make me feel good about this team's odds with him as the #2 or even #3 guy. At this stage of the rebuild, I'm not interested in paying 30+M/yr for the #4 guy.

Also, investing that much in him sets up a situation where you almost have to treat him like the #2 guy whether you should or not. Like I've said before, I'd start Beasley over him today, but no way the org would do something like that if they just signed him to a 30+M dollar extension.

Coming at it from the other direction, the team really doesn't have many tradeable assets yet at some point you have to find a way to get a second star. That means packaging some good players and Ivey is a player I'd consider in that mix. I'm not going to name specific target players, because it's so easy to make up and shoot down trades. We've all been around long enough to see the crazy deals that seem totally lopsided, so our opinions on "what's fair" don't matter to NBA GMs anyway.

And as far as trading for draft picks, I wouldn't be doing that so we could draft the player ourselves 4 years from now. It'd be about collecting assets in the war-chest to bring in a star when the opportunity arises.

As you said initially, I'm not selling low. However, I'm definitely keeping my eyes open for a deal if I'm Trajan.

 

[buddha]

would you trade ivey for zach lavine?  the bulls would do that in a heartbeat.