2/27/25 1:05 Split Squad Gm1 Red Sox @ Tigers Gm2 Tigers @ Rays

[RandyMarsh]

15 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

 

I guess you'd have to define unrealistic, A guy who's had 1 good year in his career suddenly hitting 50 hrs which only a tiny fraction of baseball players ever do is unrealistic to me. 

 

[Longgone]

15 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I guess you'd have to define unrealistic, A guy who's had 1 good year in his career suddenly hitting 50 hrs which only a tiny fraction of baseball players ever do is unrealistic to me. 

 

? He’s only 25 and he’s only had the one full year. Lots of players struggle for the first few years in mlb. They either make the necessary adjustments or they don’t, remains to be seen.

Edited February 28 by Longgone

[chasfh]

For better or worse, being a 1-1 pick comes with a set of expectations and privileges lots of players just don’t have. 1-1s get chance after chance to make good, long after other players have been spun out of the big leagues for similar outcomes. Not many players get to throw up sub-replacement numbers with a stone glove for three years as a starter at the easiest position to play and still get an honest fourth chance to make the same team’s starting lineup. In exchange for that privilege, as well as the privilege of pocketing $8 million before he even went to his first team meeting, he gets to endure an earful of **** for his ongoing terrible play and his inelegant comments in the press. It’s sad to see, but that’s how things roll in the bigs, and he has to more than just deal with it. He has to force a change to the narrative. He can do that only with results.

Personally, I’m glad the front office threw down the gauntlet and publicly announced moving another player to his position. Maybe he shouldn’t be guaranteed a starting spot because of his pedigree. Maybe this is the kind of thing Tork needs to light a fire under him and to finally take seriously whatever he might not have been taking seriously enough before. It’s put-up-or-shut-up time for Tork, because this team is going places, and there’s no longer room to carry sub-replacement starters along the way. Best of luck to him. I want nothing more than for him to put up All-Star seasons with us.

[papalawrence]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

For better or worse, being a 1-1 pick comes with a set of expectations and privileges lots of players just don’t have. 1-1s get chance after chance to make good, long after other players have been spun out of the big leagues for similar outcomes. Not many players get to throw up sub-replacement numbers with a stone glove for three years as a starter at the easiest position to play and still get an honest fourth chance to make the same team’s starting lineup. In exchange for that privilege, as well as the privilege of pocketing $8 million before he even went to his first team meeting, he gets to endure an earful of **** for his ongoing terrible play and his inelegant comments in the press. It’s sad to see, but that’s how things roll in the bigs, and he has to more than just deal with it. He has to force a change to the narrative. He can do that only with results.

Personally, I’m glad the front office threw down the gauntlet and publicly announced moving another player to his position. Maybe he shouldn’t be guaranteed a starting spot because of his pedigree. Maybe this is the kind of thing Tork needs to light a fire under him and to finally take seriously whatever he might not have been taking seriously enough before. It’s put-up-or-shut-up time for Tork, because this team is going places, and there’s no longer room to carry sub-replacement starters along the way. Best of luck to him. I want nothing more than for him to put up All-Star seasons with us.

Well said. Reflects my thoughts spot on. Although it's Friday and my thoughts tend to also contain pics of animals in my thoughts on Fridays. Today it's a giraffe, and what you said.

[Tiger337]

21 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

 

I apprecite the video, but why are we quoting Jed?  I blocked him a long time ago because he posts too much stupid stuff.  

[gehringer_2]

6 hours ago, chasfh said:

It’s put-up-or-shut-up time for Tork, because this team is going places, and there’s no longer room to carry sub-replacement starters along the way. Best of luck to him. I want nothing more than for him to put up All-Star seasons with us

The good new is that so far he is not taking strikes (SSS disclaimers of course). That was the 1st hurdle - being aggressive in the zone. Now the question is can he hit what he's swinging at. I expect - actually hope, to see his K rate go up at least a little, which is a tradeoff that will be to his advantage if it unlocks better ISO.

[Dan Gilmore]

And he doesn’t have to hit 50 to be successful and valuable. 25-30 would be more possible and fine. 

Edited February 28 by Dan Gilmore

[Sports_Freak]

3 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I apprecite the video, but why are we quoting Jed?  I blocked him a long time ago because he posts too much stupid stuff.  

I never saw him before, I don't think. But anyone predicting Tork will hit 50 home runs? I would take that bet.

[Motor City Sonics]

Does anyone believe that Tork's struggles were a lack of effort? 

To me it was mental.  Too many teachers.   The fact that he stepped away a little bit this offseason may be the best thing for him.    We'll see, but I have never read or heard anything about the guy lacking effort or having a bad attitude.    

Don't let Tork get hot.  

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Does anyone believe that Tork's struggles were a lack of effort? 

To me it was mental.  Too many teachers.   The fact that he stepped away a little bit this offseason may be the best thing for him.    We'll see, but I have never read or heard anything about the guy lacking effort or having a bad attitude.    

Don't let Tork get hot.  

Something that bothers me about the Tiger brain trust approach to hitting is that it is somewhat contradictory. Early in Tork's career, Hinch always stressed that Tork needed to selectively hunt pitches he could drive. Then we end up at a point where he's only hitting middle-middle pitches and comes the realization he has to cover more of the strike zone - that "control the zone" applies to hitters as well as pitchers. OK fine, to me that's a good approach. But then two days ago we get a story in the Det News that they see that Riley hits the inside pitch much better than the outside pitch, so he's training himself to take the outside pitch even if it's a strike. Well, wait, how long before Riley sees nothing but outside pitches? I can't help the impression that Tigers' approach to hitting is to assume a hitter will always get his pitch, IOW, it doesn't give MLB  pitchers on other teams credit for doing exactly what they expect their own pitchers to do. 🤷‍♀️

Now I suppose if all you want to do is be able to beat bad pitching, that approach may still be enough to get you to the playoffs. But good luck  beating good pitchers with it.

Edited March 1 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Something that bothers me about the Tiger brain trust approach to hitting is that it is somewhat contradictory. Early in Tork's career, Hinch always stressed that Tork needed to selectively hunt pitches he could drive. Then we end up at a point where he's only hitting middle-middle pitches and comes the realization he has to cover more of the strike zone - that "control the zone" applies to hitters as well as pitchers. OK fine, to me that's a good approach. But then two days ago we get a story in the Det News that they see that Riley hits the inside pitch much better than the outside pitch, so he's training himself to take the outside pitch even if it's a strike. Well, wait, how long before Riley sees nothing but outside pitches? I can't help the impression that Tigers' approach to hitting is to assume a hitter will always get his pitch, IOW, it doesn't give MLB  pitchers on other teams credit for doing exactly what they expect their own pitchers to do. 🤷‍♀️

Now I suppose if all you want to do is be able to beat bad pitching, that approach may still be enough to get you to the playoffs. But good luck  beating good pitchers with it.

It might be as simple as different approaches work for different guys who have different talents for hitting, and that Tork can’t do much with a pitch that’s not exactly where he has to have it—at least not last year.

 

 

[Arlington]

Maybe because Tork, like Mize, was the clear consensus first pick of that draft that Avila's team went soft on doing their due diligence.  With hindsight, how ludicrous was it to assign him to 3b even before he signed.  Clearly there was a lot of wishful thinking going on.

[Motor City Sonics]

1 hour ago, Arlington said:

Maybe because Tork, like Mize, was the clear consensus first pick of that draft that Avila's team went soft on doing their due diligence.  With hindsight, how ludicrous was it to assign him to 3b even before he signed.  Clearly there was a lot of wishful thinking going on.

I don't think it helped that A - Mize wound up having TJ surgery as his career was just getting started and B - Tork lost his first developmental year to COVID.      Look at the 2020 first round.   Not too many success stories there.   Not seeing live pitching that first year might have a lot to do with that. 

Perhaps a little more patience than normal may be needed with both.  

Edited March 1 by Motor City Sonics

[1776]

Just now, Motor City Sonics said:

I don't think it helped that A - Mize wound up having TJ surgery as his career was just getting started and B - Tork lost his first developmental year to COVID.      Look at the 2020 first round.   Not too many success stories there.   Not seeing live pitching that first year might have a lot to do with that.   

…and he should have spent more time developing in the minors. Avila was trying to keep the wolves at bay so Tork’s premature promotion was an easy distraction from a flailing GM.

[gehringer_2]

4 hours ago, chasfh said:

It might be as simple as different approaches work for different guys who have different talents for hitting, and that Tork can’t do much with a pitch that’s not exactly where he has to have it—at least not last year.

 

It more a matter of philosophy. If Riley takes outside, in a month that's all he's going to see, so he's going to have to make an adjustment to cover the plate or he's not going to get anything to hit. I guess I'd rather see him encouraged to figure out how to deal with the outside pitch from the get go than commit an approach to take it because  to me that's a dead end against good pitching and he will have to make the adjustment in the end anyway. IOW I see it as a "static" analysis result. Sure, if pitchers didn't change the way they pitch to Riley, he could just take the number of outside pitches he may be getting now. But the game isn't static. The opposition is going to adjust as soon as he starts taking and then the prior analysis about how effective he will be taking outside goes out the window.

But let's see what happens. The talk in ST is usually in more absolute terms than a player actually ever does.

Edited March 1 by gehringer_2

[Motor City Sonics]

2020 First Round

Spencer Torkelson
Heston Kjerstad
Max Meyer
Asa Lacy
Austin Maritn
Emerson Hancock
Nick Gonzales
Robert Hassell
Zac Veen
Reid Detmers
Garrett Crochet
Austin Hendrick
Patrick Bailey
Justin Foscue
Mick Abel
Ed Howard
Nick Yorke
Bryce Jarvis
Pete Crow-Armstrong
Garrett Mitchell
Jordan Walker
Cade Cavalli
Carson Tucker
Nick Bitsko
Jared Shuster
Tyler Soderstrom
Aaron Sabato 
Austin Wells
Bobby Miller

Out of The Competitive Balance Round A picks Jordan Westerberg is notable. 

 

That's not a great list of ballplayers there.     When you compare Spencer to the other players that were picked and remember the fact that he did actually hit 31 home runs one season, it's hard to rip the Tigers for taking him.    They just need to figure out where it went wrong and hopefully fix it.   Way too early to give up.  The moves they made were to send a signal to Tork, sure, but I am not convinced they are totally giving up on him.    He could hit 30 HR again, because he already has done it.   I think it's more in his head than anything and sometimes that becomes unfixable. 

 

 

 

Edited March 1 by Motor City Sonics

[gehringer_2]

12 minutes ago, 1776 said:

so Tork’s premature promotion was an easy distraction from a flailing GM.

 exactly. They had almost a Bobsey twin PR thing going with Greene and Torkelson, but Greene was a more advanced hitter. Torkelson was never given the time/forced to improve his contact skill to a sustainable level before he was called up. Sort of points to how you can't just grade MiLB players by their productions stats. Just because Tork could hit the long ball and pump up his OPS didn't mean was as ready as Greene.

[Motor City Sonics]

21 minutes ago, 1776 said:

…and he should have spent more time developing in the minors. Avila was trying to keep the wolves at bay so Tork’s premature promotion was an easy distraction from a flailing GM.

It was a desperation move but it was also done because Avila and his staff had NOBODY else to play first base.    Harris' team developing Tork would have worked out a lot better.   But lets not give up.   He might be the main DH who plays 1B against lefties this year.      Better chance of that happening now with Vierling being out for awhile.   

[gehringer_2]

27 minutes ago, 1776 said:

…and he should have spent more time developing in the minors. Avila was trying to keep the wolves at bay so Tork’s premature promotion was an easy distraction from a flailing GM.

The other aspect with Torkelson is that his senior year was also pretty much a development loss because nobody would pitch to him. So he actually has had two semi-non useful years out of his career.

Edited March 1 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

It more a matter of philosophy.

I acknowledge people like to blame Hinch without blaming the level of talent he has had to work with, but I'm willing to give the philosophy a fair chance to work as he gets better talent in house.

Edited March 1 by chasfh

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

I acknowledge people like to blame Hinch without blaming the level of talent he has had to work with, but I'm willing to give the philosophy a fair chance to work as he gets better talent in house.

I'm waiting to see if the appearance of machines that can emulate real pitchers (trajekt etc) begin to do anything close for for hitters what Rhapsodo etc has done for pitchers. I've often wondered if one of the reasons (beside better pitching overall) that modern hitters don't manage the BA and OBP of prior eras is the degree to which it's harder to face pitchers with whom you are not familiar. In Kaline's day, you played 162 games against the same 8 teams - in a year or two you'd seen every pitcher dozens of times, today you maybe see a guy twice in a season. That had to be a big advantage  - well you would think anyway. So maybe the pitching robots answer the question on that: If you can take 50 AB against everything a particular pitcher throws before you have to face him live, is he going to be easier to hit or not in the real world?

Edited March 1 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

35 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I'm waiting to see if the appearance of machines that can emulate real pitchers (trajekt etc) begin to do anything close for for hitters what Rhapsodo etc has done for pitchers. I've often wondered if one of the reasons (beside better pitching overall) that modern hitters don't manage the BA and OBP of prior eras is the degree to which it's harder to face pitchers with whom you are not familiar. In Kaline's day, you played 162 games against the same 8 teams - in a year or two you'd seen every pitcher dozens of times, today you maybe see a guy twice in a season. That had to be a big advantage  - well you would think anyway. So maybe the pitching robots answer the question on that: If you can take 50 AB against everything a particular pitcher throws before you have to face him live, is he going to be easier to hit or not in the real world?

I think that’s part of it. Another part of it is that strikeout rates are basically double what they were in Kaline’s day. The rate was 11.4% when Kaline won the batting title in 1955. Last season it was 22.6%.

If a guy has 600 at bats, it’s the difference between striking out 66 times and 132 times. Those 66 times he would not have struck out would result in something like 15 or 20 extra base hits. That’s something like 20 or 30 points of batting average difference right there. That’s partly why entire leagues hit .245 now and not .270.

There is some correlation between the lack of exposure to the same guys over and over and the strikeouts, but a lot of the reason must also be that the velocity and spin are so much more than in Kaline’s day. I think if 1955 Al Kaline were magically transported to 2025 to face today’s pitchers, he’d bat maybe a buck-fifty. That’s not a criticism of Al Kaline.