2025 Detroit Tigers General Discussion Thread

[chasfh]

So, this is another story from the paper this morning, and it's really interesting in that it reveals that Tigers hitting coaching staff has been a bit of an unfocused mess when it comes to trying to help hitters on the team. It's wild that Jace would out them in the paper as being such. Either he's talking out of school, or the org has made some changes to address it.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2025/04/18/in-toledo-detroit-tigers-jace-jung-is-back-swinging-like-he-talks-freely/83001485007

Even as the Tigers stressed his defense was where he needed improvement, Jung said he was getting plenty of things to work on offensively, too ― perhaps even too much. Every hitting coach had some new suggestion, and it was difficult, if not impossible, to please them all.

Eventually, Jung decided that he needed to do what works for him, and what made him a first-round pick.

It's a strikingly similar situation to Spencer Torkelson, the No. 1 overall pick in 2020 who hit 31 home runs in 2023, was demoted to Toledo in 2024 and lost any guarantee of a roster spot for 2025. The two have talked about Jung's plight.

...

Jung, who's never lacked for confidence, still ... just believes he has to do it, in large part, his own way.

Too much advice can lead to too many tweaks, which can lead to being too mechanical, which can lead to being less athletic. Hinch has talked about getting Torkelson back to being more athletic in the box.

For Jung, he's back to swinging like he talks: Freely.

"You're trying to make the team so hard, you're trying to appease every single hitting coach, every single person in that office. I'm trying to appease every hitting guy telling me something different, so I'm trying to make it work and make them happy, because I think that's what's gonna help me make the team," Jung said. "And at the end of the day, you've gotta go out there and perform. You've gotta do what's best for you. You can't be listening to every single person, 'cause if you do that and try to appease too many people, it never really works out.

"They're trying to help me. ... It just didn't help. ... It kind of got me thinking a little bit too much."

Thinking is a good thing. Overthinking can be a bad thing ― especially when hitting is just half the job.

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

So, this is another story from the paper this morning, and it's really interesting in that it reveals that Tigers hitting coaching staff has been a bit of an unfocused mess when it comes to trying to help hitters on the team.

it has to be a frustration for a quantitative driven management that there is so much you can do for a pitcher with today's data and tech and yet how limited what you can do for a hitter remains. I think at least at the general theory level, Harris has been a clarifying voice with the idea that you have to be competitive against the whole or at least as much of the K zone as you can. My impression was that under Avila's people the emphasis in being selective at the plate had gone too far and Tigers' hitters too often found themselves hitting out a hole behind in the count - certainly one of the habits Torkelson was still fighting early last season.

[Tiger337]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

So, this is another story from the paper this morning, and it's really interesting in that it reveals that Tigers hitting coaching staff has been a bit of an unfocused mess when it comes to trying to help hitters on the team. It's wild that Jace would out them in the paper as being such. Either he's talking out of school, or the org has made some changes to address it.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2025/04/18/in-toledo-detroit-tigers-jace-jung-is-back-swinging-like-he-talks-freely/83001485007

Even as the Tigers stressed his defense was where he needed improvement, Jung said he was getting plenty of things to work on offensively, too ― perhaps even too much. Every hitting coach had some new suggestion, and it was difficult, if not impossible, to please them all.

Eventually, Jung decided that he needed to do what works for him, and what made him a first-round pick.

It's a strikingly similar situation to Spencer Torkelson, the No. 1 overall pick in 2020 who hit 31 home runs in 2023, was demoted to Toledo in 2024 and lost any guarantee of a roster spot for 2025. The two have talked about Jung's plight.

...

Jung, who's never lacked for confidence, still ... just believes he has to do it, in large part, his own way.

Too much advice can lead to too many tweaks, which can lead to being too mechanical, which can lead to being less athletic. Hinch has talked about getting Torkelson back to being more athletic in the box.

For Jung, he's back to swinging like he talks: Freely.

"You're trying to make the team so hard, you're trying to appease every single hitting coach, every single person in that office. I'm trying to appease every hitting guy telling me something different, so I'm trying to make it work and make them happy, because I think that's what's gonna help me make the team," Jung said. "And at the end of the day, you've gotta go out there and perform. You've gotta do what's best for you. You can't be listening to every single person, 'cause if you do that and try to appease too many people, it never really works out.

"They're trying to help me. ... It just didn't help. ... It kind of got me thinking a little bit too much."

Thinking is a good thing. Overthinking can be a bad thing ― especially when hitting is just half the job.

This is interesting.  It will be more interesting to see how they adderss the situation. It could be a matter of some players needing a lot of data and others needing to be more natural.  It seems that they are now allowing Torkelson to do it his way with positive results.   

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

This is interesting.  It will be more interesting to see how they adderss the situation. It could be a matter of some players needing a lot of data and others needing to be more natural.  It seems that they are now allowing Torkelson to do it his way with positive results.   

I would have thought the pitch simulation machines like Trajekt would have been a huge breakthrough for hitters, but they are around now and so far hitting doesn't seem to have been impacted enough to move the needle in overall league numbers.

Dan was talking today about BaBIP still being on a downward trend and assigning that to constantly improving pitching, though I have a suspicion that the increased emphasis by hitters on hitting the ball in the air is also playing a part. Fly balls are generally at least as easy an out as a hard grounder.

Maybe better for OPS but not necessarily for BA.

(edited to remove echo.....)

Edited April 20 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

This is interesting.  It will be more interesting to see how they adderss the situation. It could be a matter of some players needing a lot of data and others needing to be more natural.  It seems that they are now allowing Torkelson to do it his way with positive results.   

Hitting coach in the majors has to be the worst job in all of professional sports. Half the guys you are working with probably know as much about hitting as you do, all of then know themselves better than you do and almost all of them are already as good or better at it than you ever were, but it's up to you to make them better anyway....

Edited April 20 by gehringer_2

[gehringer_2]

5 hours ago, chasfh said:

ou can't be listening to every single person, 'cause if you do that and try to appease too many people, it never really works out.

Also interesting that even last season Hinch said more than once that he thought Torkelson had too many people in his ear - maybe that's a little odd since it's his staff - or maybe it's not completely under his control, and he might also have been talking about outside coaching as well. I did read over his last off-season that the Tigers have sort of thrown in the towel about resistance to  guys getting outside coaching and realized they just have to roll with it.

[Arlington]

Hitting is so reactive.  You have to be prepared for everything.  You can't go in and say work on your curveball swing.  Whereas pitchers can.  One coach can work on a pitch and another coach another pitch.  Hitting is more generalized and one adaption might strengthen a batters effectiveness on some pitches but open vulnerabilities against another.   I hope the hitting coaches consult together as much as they do with the players and they approach the batter in a unified manner.   

[Tigeraholic1]

 

[chasfh]

13 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Hitting coach in the majors has to be the worst job in all of professional sports. Half the guys you are working with probably know as much about hitting as you do, all of then know themselves better than you do and almost all of them are already as good or better at it than you ever were, but it's up to you to make them better anyway....

I think it’s true that some guys are so messed up that they need to be reconstructed practically from scratch, and other times hitting coaching screws up a guy who might be struggling a little but who needs something more surgical than reconstructive. But I would also bet a lot of hitting coaching at the major league level is helping guys with the little flaws that inevitably develop in an entire swing profile that is keeping them from achieving their maximum potential. You know, like, your leg kick is getting a little early, your shoulder is starting to drop, you’re starting to get too long on the swing—stuff like that. Today’s hitting coaches also have to be good at distilling and interpreting video for hitters as well.

[monkeytargets39]

It does seem weird to me how certain guys end up as hitting coaches.

Out of all the players on our 2006-2014 competitive run, would anyone have thought Marcus Thames would become a hitting coach?  

[oblong]

16 minutes ago, monkeytargets39 said:

It does seem weird to me how certain guys end up as hitting coaches.

Out of all the players on our 2006-2014 competitive run, would anyone have thought Marcus Thames would become a hitting coach?  

Could also be a case where the ones we think of as good hitters made enough money where they don’t have to coach after playing. 
 

years ago someone shared an article or excerpt about a promising player who basically had to be left alone until they failed because the coaches and org knew he’d never listen or believe them until that happened. 

[Edman85]

Not sure what the bullpen depth need will going forward, but Vanasco and Guenther have been activated from the IL by Toledo this week.

[Edman85]

2 hours ago, monkeytargets39 said:

It does seem weird to me how certain guys end up as hitting coaches.

Out of all the players on our 2006-2014 competitive run, would anyone have thought Marcus Thames would become a hitting coach?  

Coaching and playing are two completely different deals.

Signed, a great engineer who admits to flailing when being asked to lead engineers.

[chasfh]

Just now, Edman85 said:

Coaching and playing are two completely different deals.

Signed, a great engineer who admits to flailing when being asked to lead engineers.

Individual contributors may not rule, but they do rock.

[monkeytargets39]

3 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Coaching and playing are two completely different deals.

Signed, a great engineer who admits to flailing when being asked to lead engineers.

Also could be that guys who have more offensive struggles get more coaching and more analysis, therefore they have a better idea of how to adjust and approach and work through mechanics and slumps.

A guy like Miggy was always a top level hitter, but it seemed to be so natural to him that perhaps he cant explain it to someone who needs a lot of work.  

[gehringer_2]

39 minutes ago, monkeytargets39 said:

but it seemed to be so natural to him that perhaps he cant explain it to someone who needs a lot of work.  

this is very true and sports isn't the only place. It's always hard to teach something where any part of the phrase "it comes to me naturally" applies at all, because you have no experience with which to identify with the person for whom it doesn't. 

[oblong]

“Those who can’t, teach”

[papalawrence]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

“Those who can’t, teach”

Is that a Charlie Lau quote?

[monkeytargets39]

5 minutes ago, papalawrence said:

Is that a Charlie Lau quote?

It’s a quote from every uninvolved parent who gets upset at the teacher that their child can’t perform at grade level.

[Edman85]

4 hours ago, monkeytargets39 said:

Also could be that guys who have more offensive struggles get more coaching and more analysis, therefore they have a better idea of how to adjust and approach and work through mechanics and slumps.

A guy like Miggy was always a top level hitter, but it seemed to be so natural to him that perhaps he cant explain it to someone who needs a lot of work.  

Same applies to engineers who never got below an A in a math class.

[Arlington]

7 hours ago, monkeytargets39 said:

A guy like Miggy was always a top level hitter, but it seemed to be so natural to him that perhaps he cant explain it to someone who needs a lot of work.  

I agree with your premise. I just flinched when I read "always."  There's about six years there were he was maybe not so much. 

[monkeytargets39]

15 minutes ago, Arlington said:

I agree with your premise. I just flinched when I read "always."  There's about six years there were he was maybe not so much. 

Well…..when healthy.  I don’t think he ever lost the ability to see pitches and stay balanced at the plate—he just lost a lot of his physical ability to match the mental ability

[lordstanley]

Skubal still makes it after today, at 2.83

Edited Monday at 02:59 AM by lordstanley

[chasfh]

19 hours ago, monkeytargets39 said:

Also could be that guys who have more offensive struggles get more coaching and more analysis, therefore they have a better idea of how to adjust and approach and work through mechanics and slumps.

A guy like Miggy was always a top level hitter, but it seemed to be so natural to him that perhaps he cant explain it to someone who needs a lot of work.  

Right—Miggy may never have had to examine why he is such a great hitter. He just did it. Teddy Ballgame might be the exception when it comes to that principle.

[Tiger337]

12 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Right—Miggy may never have had to examine why he is such a great hitter. He just did it. Teddy Ballgame might be the exception when it comes to that principle.

There's the famous story about Hornsby when he was a manager and a young player asked him to teach him how to hit. Instead of giving instructions, Hornsby grabbed a bat and started hitting line drive after line drive.  After he was done, he said: "That's how you hit".

The story may not be true, but he had a reputation of being a terrible manager.