4/4/25 1:10 White Sox @ Tigers Home Opener!

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said:

I wonder if Riley is going to hit 40 long balls this year?

I had mentioned Riley in a prior game thread as looking like at least a 30-homer guy. Assuming he’s healthy and plays 150 games, my WAG is that he’s a 75% chance for 30 bombs and maybe 20% for 40. This assumes a similar HR rate for MLB overall.

[Tiger337]

I think there is a very real chance Greene beaks out into superstardom this year...if he stays healthy.  

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

LOL - Right from the get go you have to let go of what should be vs what is when it comes to MLB scoring.

Seriously, if I had to guess, you get to the no error ruling based on an assumption by the scorer that if Javy had taken the time to stand up and set for a throw (i.e. ordinary effort play), the runner would have been safe. So by attempting the DP he went beyond ordinary effort and it's just a failed FC (and no-one got an extra base on the throw so no error was charged)  even though he might have been able to take more time and go to 1st for one. Funny thing is that if had gone to 1st and made a bad throw, for certain the error would have been charged. But that's just another measure of how goofed up scoring is. And of course, the error in judgement to attempt a DP that isn't there isn't an error either. 🤷‍♂️

There’s also the issue of “ordinary effort” bs “extraordinary effort”, a key standard for assigning errors. By any standard, throwing to a base from a knee goes beyond ordinary effort. 

[Jim Cowan]

I love the way everybody runs Benintendi's arm!  It's hilarious, Greene did it to him last night.  The greatest ever was Miggy's final year, he scored on a sac fly to ludicrously short left field.  Always a pleasure. 🙂

[casimir]

22 hours ago, monkeytargets39 said:

This Maeda sucks

.

[casimir]

22 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Maeda is pointless.    Just do it already,   bring Foley back up. 

I think spring training bought him some time in an otherwise likely dump him before 2025 season is over scenario.  This outing where they had to burn Vest isn’t going to sit well.  This outing against a hapless Chicago lineup isn’t going to sit well.

I liked his acquisition, I thought it made sense.  But he may be done as a major leaguer.  I appreciate him changing his off-season regimen to account for his poor 2024.  I was hopeful that would help him this season.  And his spring seemed to encourage as well.  Maybe it was one rough outing, but he’s at a point where he can’t have many of these.

[gehringer_2]

7 hours ago, chasfh said:

There’s also the issue of “ordinary effort” bs “extraordinary effort”, a key standard for assigning errors. By any standard, throwing to a base from a knee goes beyond ordinary effort. 

right - and in this play the fact that no-one advanced an *extra* base on the missed throw is, I think, the difference. If you try an extraordinary play and everyone is just safe where they are, that's one thing, but if the missed throw had been bad enough that the runners advanced beyond the out not made, I think they would have assessed the errror.

[chasfh]

I reached out to my friend who is an official scorer. I was incorrect when I speculated that there might not be any errors given on fiedler’s choice plays. It does come down to official scorer interpretation of whether a play was ordinary or extraordinary.

He says:

I looked at the play. Looks like the OS decided that Baez could have thrown out Sosa at first but decided to try for a force at second and that the throw to second - from his knee - was beyond ordinary effort. So no error for missing an out. Judgment call by the OS (and I agree). He would have had time to get up and throw to first, so it's FC and not a hit; going to second required more than ordinary effort.

[casimir]

27 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I reached out to my friend who is an official scorer. I was incorrect when I speculated that there might not be any errors given on fiedler’s choice plays. It does come down to official scorer interpretation of whether a play was ordinary or extraordinary.

He says:

I looked at the play. Looks like the OS decided that Baez could have thrown out Sosa at first but decided to try for a force at second and that the throw to second - from his knee - was beyond ordinary effort. So no error for missing an out. Judgment call by the OS (and I agree). He would have had time to get up and throw to first, so it's FC and not a hit; going to second required more than ordinary effort.

The reasoning seems to imply errors are only granted for physical events rather than mental events.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, casimir said:

The reasoning seems to imply errors are only granted for physical events rather than mental events.

I don't think that's even implied—the rule book is explicit in that errors are charged for physical miscues only. See Note (3) especially:

10.13 An error shall be charged for each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) which prolongs the time at bat of a batter or which prolongs the life of a runner, or which permits a runner to advance one or more bases.

NOTE (1) Slow handling of the ball which does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error.

NOTE (2) It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer's judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged.

NOTE (3) Mental mistakes or misjudgments are not to be scored as errors unless specifically covered in the rules.

I know this is not you at all, but, I get how Americans are culturally hard-wired to visit maximum punishment upon miscreants in all cases—it's also why many fans are adamant that pitchers should be charged earned runs if they make their own errors as a fielder—and would like to see fielders punished, and punished hard, for mental mistakes. But, I guess sadly for them, that's not how baseball scoring works.

Edited Sunday at 04:13 PM by chasfh

[casimir]

35 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don't think that's even implied—the rule book is explicit in that errors are charged for physical miscues only. See Note (3) especially:

10.13 An error shall be charged for each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) which prolongs the time at bat of a batter or which prolongs the life of a runner, or which permits a runner to advance one or more bases.

NOTE (1) Slow handling of the ball which does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error.

NOTE (2) It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer's judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged.

NOTE (3) Mental mistakes or misjudgments are not to be scored as errors unless specifically covered in the rules.

I know this is not you at all, but, I get how Americans are culturally hard-wired to visit maximum punishment upon miscreants in all cases—it's also why many fans are adamant that pitchers should be charged earned runs if they make their own errors as a fielder—and would like to see fielders punished, and punished hard, for mental mistakes. But, I guess sadly for them, that's not how baseball scoring works.

Well, I guess the other thing with the “mental” side of it is, it might not be mental at all.  Go back to the season finale vs Seattle and the differing opinions on Keith’s baserunning.  I go back to what we saw on TV is probably different than what Keith sees on the field, what Cora sees on the field.  It might not be as much mental inasmuch as it might be perception or approach.  That might be parsing the term mental a bit much, I don’t know.

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

I don't think that's even implied—the rule book is explicit in that errors are charged for physical miscues only. See Note (3) especially:

10.13 An error shall be charged for each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) which prolongs the time at bat of a batter or which prolongs the life of a runner, or which permits a runner to advance one or more bases.

NOTE (1) Slow handling of the ball which does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error.

NOTE (2) It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer's judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged.

NOTE (3) Mental mistakes or misjudgments are not to be scored as errors unless specifically covered in the rules.

I know this is not you at all, but, I get how Americans are culturally hard-wired to visit maximum punishment upon miscreants in all cases—it's also why many fans are adamant that pitchers should be charged earned runs if they make their own errors as a fielder—and would like to see fielders punished, and punished hard, for mental mistakes. But, I guess sadly for them, that's not how baseball scoring works.

rule 2 is pretty much ignored - it's quite hard to get an error on an untouched ball other than maybe the specific between the legs case, and probably exactly because that case is mentioned.

I think the issue is from where you come to the discussion about scoring; from the pitcher's view about earned runs, or a more general hitter's view, and thus whether you think scoring only exists to validate earns runs, or whether it has intrinsic value of its own outside of earned run calculation. If you approach it from a pitcher centric view, the rules should absolutely recognize more or FTM all mental errors on outs that are there to be made. From a hitters perspective, I am out often enough when I hit a ball well, I deserve a hit if I hit a ball that fools an OF as much as if I hit it over his head.

I'm in the pitching camp. If the pitcher threw a pitch that should have resulted in an out and it wasn't made, I would always rules to call that an error.

 

[papalawrence]

On 4/5/2025 at 10:14 AM, Jim Cowan said:

I love the way everybody runs Benintendi's arm!  It's hilarious, Greene did it to him last night.  The greatest ever was Miggy's final year, he scored on a sac fly to ludicrously short left field.  Always a pleasure. 🙂

The urine on his jersey limits his arm strength 

[chasfh]

5 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

rule 2 is pretty much ignored - it's quite hard to get an error on an untouched ball other than maybe the specific between the legs case, and probably exactly because that case is mentioned.

I think the issue is from where you come to the discussion about scoring; from the pitcher's view about earned runs, or a more general hitter's view, and thus whether you think scoring only exists to validate earns runs, or whether it has intrinsic value of its own outside of earned run calculation. If you approach it from a pitcher centric view, the rules should absolutely recognize more or FTM all mental errors on outs that are there to be made. From a hitters perspective, I am out often enough when I hit a ball well, I deserve a hit if I hit a ball that fools an OF as much as if I hit it over his head.

I'm in the pitching camp. If the pitcher threw a pitch that should have resulted in an out and it wasn't made, I would always rules to call that an error.

 

I’m coming around to the camp of if you put your bat on the ball and you get on base, that’s a hit. Make them all earned runs. Really, it was more important when 30% of runs resulted from errors. Now it’s less than 10%. It doesn’t really matter that much any more.

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, chasfh said:

I’m coming around to the camp of if you put your bat on the ball and you get on base, that’s a hit. Make them all earned runs. Really, it was more important when 30% of runs resulted from errors. Now it’s less than 10%. It doesn’t really matter that much any more.

I don't know if it should be a hit, but I think reaching base on an error should be counted as getting on base in the OBP calculation.  They could treat it like an HBP which is also largely luck, although I know there are a small number of players who do consistently get hit by the pitch.  The same may be true of reaching on an error.  I'm not sure.    

[gehringer_2]

21 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I’m coming around to the camp of if you put your bat on the ball and you get on base, that’s a hit. Make them all earned runs. Really, it was more important when 30% of runs resulted from errors. Now it’s less than 10%. It doesn’t really matter that much any more.

don't look for your invite to the annual Pitcher's Benevolent association ball this year.

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

don't look for your invite to the annual Pitcher's Benevolent association ball this year.

That’s OK, I’m a hitter, so I was never getting an invite anyway. 😁