1984Echoes Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Just a WAG but... I think Matt Manning will take a strong step forward in 2024. I don't know why I think this... but he's had some flashes of ability... How do the Tigers' coaches get some stability/ sustainability out of him? I think they all figure it out in 2024. Again, I'm just taking a guess here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 17, 2023 Author Share Posted October 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Just a WAG but... I think Matt Manning will take a strong step forward in 2024. I don't know why I think this... but he's had some flashes of ability... How do the Tigers' coaches get some stability/ sustainability out of him? I think they all figure it out in 2024. Again, I'm just taking a guess here... Manning has the talent - can he stay on the field? He's been snake-bit so far, no reason for that to continue - yet there are always players for whom it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Yep... Hence my inclusion of "sustainability"... Gotta be on the field to actually count for something for the team... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 5 hours ago, Tenacious D said: Here’s where I was coming from: Skubal Erod/free agent replacement Mize Turnbull Manning Olsen Gipson-Long Brieske Faedo Flores/Madden/Hurter Jobe Skubal, Mize, and Manning in the Detroit rotation if healthy. Olsen seems likely to be in there as well. And then there will be a FA SP to join them. I think at this point Faedo and Briekse are RPs that can throw multiple innings if needed. Same for Alexander if he returns. Are there any other SP/SP types on the 40 to consider? Some have mentioned Holton as a possible rotation option, but I think he remains a RP. Gipson-Long, Flores, Madden, Hurter, and Jobe are SPs in the minors. Maybe that could be enough minor league depth? I don't know, it seems like another arm or two in Toledo with maybe Jobe starting in Erie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 I don't think Manning has been especially impressive when he has been on the field. He certainly has shown flashes, but has not sustained anything for more than few weeks and has low strikeout rates. I was more impressed with what Olsen did last year than anything Manning has done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 13 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Just a WAG but... I think Matt Manning will take a strong step forward in 2024. I don't know why I think this... but he's had some flashes of ability... How do the Tigers' coaches get some stability/ sustainability out of him? I think they all figure it out in 2024. Again, I'm just taking a guess here... I don't know. The peripherals suggest his 2023 was lucky. It'd be nice to see it, but I don't know. 8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Manning has the talent - can he stay on the field? He's been snake-bit so far, no reason for that to continue - yet there are always players for whom it does. I think his 2023 injuries were flukey. Both were from batted balls, were they not? They cost him innings, sure, but don't think they were necessarily directly related to pitching motion or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 17, 2023 Author Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I don't think Manning has been especially impressive when he has been on the field. He certainly has shown flashes, but has not sustained anything for more than few weeks and has low strikeout rates. I was more impressed with what Olsen did last year than anything Manning has done. Ha! I like Manning's potential exactly because he can be effective without high K's, that is, he's not a slider dependent pitcher. If a guy can successfully get batters out with a fastball and change or curve, I think the K rates will drift up as he learns to sequence better, but he'll be more consistent in the long term and less prone to implosion when he can't find the feel for that slider and less slider dependence is also more resistance to platooning. Edited October 17, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
microline133 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 3 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: You can hide problems like that in the BP though... Shorter stints let less keying in on a pitchers' faults, as long as there are enough other positive aspects. I don't know how problematic the tunneling is; it may allow an easier read on his different pitches. But the other thing in the BP is he can let it rip more than trying to pace as a starter. An extra couple MPH may offset the easier reads on tunneling. The BP also usually limits repertoire to a reliever's two best pitches rather than a "use all 4 or 5 pitches mentality" as a starter. I think this could all be shortened to: I think he'll be fine as a 2-3 inning reliever; better than he would be as a starter. A relief role has been the obvious projection for Flores for 2+ years. This shouldn't be surprising at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 Not surprised at all. I'm no scout at all so what do I know? Except that all the descriptions I've seen and stuff/reports, etc... screamed out reliever. I've been calling out Flores as a reliever all year long and I think last year too (zero memory left so don't hold me to that...). I think he's perfect to push into the BP. Short stints at max effort. Couple innings at a time. I'm good with that. I'd rather look to Mize/ Manning/ Skubal/ Olson/ Madden/ Jobe to fill out a rotation. Amateur 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerNation Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 9 hours ago, Tiger337 said: I don't think Manning has been especially impressive when he has been on the field. He certainly has shown flashes, but has not sustained anything for more than few weeks and has low strikeout rates. I was more impressed with what Olsen did last year than anything Manning has done. Agreed, and Mannings statcast data is not good either. The only hope I have with Manning is that he can be a durable innings eater, which he hasn't come close to doing. But he does have the frame and build that looks capable of being a guy that can go out and give you 200 IP. A back of the rotation guy that can give you a mid 4 ERA is valuable, especially when that guy is cheap and under team control. But that's about all I'd hope for out of him at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 I share that same sentiment with Manning. I see him more as a Rick Porcello when he was here type at best than a mid to Frontline starter. That's not necessarily a bad thing either cause you could do a lot worse than that for your number 5 guy but I think anybody expecting much more than that is going to end up being disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 8 hours ago, TigerNation said: Agreed, and Mannings statcast data is not good either. Yes, that's another thing. There is no indication from Statcast numbers that he is compensating for lack of strikeouts by limiting hard hit balls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruzer1 Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 I think last year was as good as Manning will ever pitch in the majors. I think it would be good to sell high for a change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruzer1 Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 And I think that Gipson-Long should be a strong candidate for a starting spot. He looked very good imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 25 minutes ago, Cruzer1 said: I think last year was as good as Manning will ever pitch in the majors. I think it would be good to sell high for a change. He was not very impressive—I think we’d be selling low if we try to flip him this offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 Manning is 25...I don't think he's at his ceiling...nor do I think we would get full value if we traded him npw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 18, 2023 Author Share Posted October 18, 2023 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: Manning is 25...I don't think he's at his ceiling...nor do I think we would get full value if we traded him npw. Manning tends to be as good as his fastball is on any given outing and his mechanics were not consistent from start to start last season so his fast ball was up and down. There was a pretty good inverse correlation between his velocity and his results. If he ever gets a chance to pitch more regularly, and his ability to access more consistent velocity straightens out, I think you will see a more consistent pitcher. And sure he might not, but if a guy has shown he has the arm to throw hard at least half the time do you really want to bet that another team isn't going to unlock that as soon as you move him? It's a much more straightforward task than fixing a bad breaking ball. Edited October 18, 2023 by gehringer_2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Manning tends to be as good as his fastball is on any given outing and his mechanics were not consistent from start to start last season so his fast ball was up and down. There was a pretty good inverse correlation between his velocity and his results. If he ever gets a chance to pitch more regularly, and his ability to access more consistent velocity straightens out, I think you will see a more consistent pitcher. And sure he might not, but if a guy has shown he has the arm to throw hard at least half the time do you really want to bet that another team isn't going to unlock that as soon as you move him? It's a much more straightforward task than fixing a bad breaking ball. This is why I still believe he has upside, and can reach it... by gaining some consistency. But also to G2's earlier point: He's not relying on a wipeout slider. But instead: change of speeds with his changeup and curve. The key is for Fetter to unlock some high-end consistency out of Manning. If he does that, he's not a back-end innings eater but a mid-rotation guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KL2 Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 4 hours ago, Cruzer1 said: I think last year was as good as Manning will ever pitch in the majors. I think it would be good to sell high for a change. Tiger fans on 25-year-old Matt Manning: Get rid of him, he's reached his peak. He sucks. Tiger fans on 25 year old Gibson long after 4 games: This guy is solid. Big part of the future 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 18, 2023 Share Posted October 18, 2023 14 minutes ago, KL2 said: Tiger fans on 25-year-old Matt Manning: Get rid of him, he's reached his peak. He sucks. Trade him for Soto! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruzer1 Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, KL2 said: Tiger fans on 25-year-old Matt Manning: Get rid of him, he's reached his peak. He sucks. Tiger fans on 25 year old Gibson long after 4 games: This guy is solid. Big part of the future Dude, there's enough data on Manning. He should have value when he's cheap. Shame on you for being condescending. Edited October 19, 2023 by Cruzer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 16 minutes ago, Cruzer1 said: Dude, there's enough data on Manning. He should have value when he's cheap. Shame on you for being condescending. Yes and I think that his value is not going to improve, he just can't strike people out, his K/9 is from the 1970's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 Why do people think other orgs won't see the things about our players that we see about them? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 4 hours ago, Jim Cowan said: Yes and I think that his value is not going to improve, he just can't strike people out, his K/9 is from the 1970's. We won't know what they have in him until he has a stretch where he is fully healthy, able to get in shape physically and and is able to get into a good routine, all things he hasn't had so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 44 minutes ago, oblong said: Why do people think other orgs won't see the things about our players that we see about them? Well, that's actually part of the reason why an organization might trade for him. Another organization might see something that the Tigers/Manning haven't been able to adjust that they feel might unlock something and get more value out of Manning. I always thought Gregory Soto was overrated because of his control issues, his poor BB9. I was quite pleased to see him traded. But somehow or another, his track record of poor BB9 was cut significantly. How did that happen? Its only one season, is it sustainable? Why was this an issue under the Tiger pitching staff (which I think is reasonably considered an asset), but Philly was able to polish Soto up? I agree with you, though, other organizations see what we can see watching games, looking over baseball reference, baseball savant, fangraphs, etc, etc. So they're going to see those data points, sure. But what do they see that we don't see? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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