Tiger Cubs (notes on the minors)

[gehringer_2]

Petzold with piece on JHM today. Greatest thing since sliced bread etc., etc.

Even ignoring whether he has turned himself into a passable OF over the off-season, IMO there are two large grains of salt to take JHM. He had a high OPS but wasn't a great average hitter last season (277) because a big piece of his OPS last season was walks. Plate discipline is great of course, but MLB pitchers simply are not likely to walk him at near the rate MiLB pitchers did. And ironically maybe, the fact that his eye at the plate is apparently very good is going to work against him going from AAA last season to the minors. Last season he was able to challenge and win enough strike calls he didn't agree with to impress his teammates and manager, but good luck for a rookie against MLB umpires he disagrees with. 

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

Petzold with piece on JHM today. Greatest thing since sliced bread etc., etc.

Even ignoring whether he has turned himself into a passable OF over the off-season, IMO there are two large grains of salt to take JHM. He had a high OPS but wasn't a great average hitter last season (277) because a big piece of his OPS last season was walks. Plate discipline is great of course, but MLB pitchers simply are not likely to walk him at near the rate MiLB pitchers did. And ironically maybe, the fact that his eye at the plate is apparently very good is going to work against him going from AAA last season to the minors. Last season he was able to challenge and win enough strike calls he didn't agree with to impress his teammates and manager, but good luck for a rookie against MLB umpires he disagrees with. 

I heard a long interview with him last night.  Again, he sounds a lot like Curtis Granderson and he would be a fan favorite if he succeeded.  I am curious to see what happens with him, but I have the same concerns as eveyone else.  Can he field any position OK enough to hide him?  If he has to be DH, is his bat good enough to carry him?  He has a great eye, but I agree that's a skill that will be difficult to bring into the majors against superior pitchers every night.    

[oblong]

Everybody in the future should be a DH except Riley Greene and Meadows.

 

[RandyMarsh]

I mentioned it before but its crazy to me how the Tigers can never seem to find a prospect that projects to be a two way player. By two way player I mean atleast can hold his own at a position, not necessarily even being plus or anything. Outside of Greene every prospect we've had in the past say 15 years they've all seem to essentially be position less or destined to DH. 

 

[gehringer_2]

27 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I mentioned it before but its crazy to me how the Tigers can never seem to find a prospect that projects to be a two way player. By two way player I mean atleast can hold his own at a position, not necessarily even being plus or anything. Outside of Greene every prospect we've had in the past say 15 years they've all seem to essentially be position less or destined to DH. 

 

guys with good bats and gloves are just rare - but I'd also guess that part of it is that the Tigers have done a poor job in Latin America - which is a where a lot of the best two way players originate. I think kids in the US who show hitting ability early often don't get pushed hard to become better fielders when they are still young enough for it to happen.

Edited February 10 by gehringer_2

[RandyMarsh]

8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

guys with good bats and gloves are just rare - but I'd also guess that part of it is that the Tigers have done a poor job in Latin America - which is a where a lot of the best two way players originate. I think kids in the US who show hitting ability early often don't get pushed hard to become better fielders when they are still young enough for it to happen.

Yeah they aren't the easiest to find but it's just wild to me that we've had some relatively highly rated guys but just about all of them have come with the caveat that they can't play defense, like I know it's really tough to find a true two way guy that can hit and is also great in the field but you think we'd be able to find some that at the very least would come with something like "He may never win a gold glove but at the very least he should be able to field a corner position competently". From Nick to Tork to now Keith, JHM and Jung they all seem to not even come with that back ground. 

Edited February 10 by RandyMarsh

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Yeah they aren't the easiest to find but it's just wild to me that we've had some relatively highly rated guys but just about all of them have come with the caveat that they can't play defense, like I know it's really tough to find a true two way guy that can hit and is also great in the field but you think we'd be able to find some that at the very least would come with something like "He may never win a gold glove but at the very least he should be able to field a corner position competently". From Nick to Tork to now Keith, JHM and Jung they all seem to not even come with that back ground. 

If Workman or Kreidler had hit better you'd have a couple of better gloves. But to be fair, Jake is a good catcher, and if Meadows sticks and Jung gets here, you added two ave to above ave gloves.

[RandyMarsh]

BTW I think most of the big national lists are done with now and from what I can gather the Tigers have 7 different guys make atleast one of the top 100s with Clark,Jobe,Jung,Keith,Meadows, McGonigle and JHM plus Ty Madden came in at 107 on ESPN's list so right on the cusp. Having 8 different guys viewed that highly seems like the most we have had in decades cause even a few years when our system was rated as one of the best I believe it was more due to the top 4 or 5 guys and then a big drop off after that. 

A really impressive turnaround in just a year or 2 after Harris took over. The previous regime definitely deserves some credit since some of the player development improvements started under them but I think Harris and Co. took it to another level. 

Edited February 10 by RandyMarsh

[gehringer_2]

16 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

BTW I think most of the big national lists are done with now and from what I can gather the Tigers have 7 different guys make atleast one of the top 100s with Clark,Jobe,Jung,Keith,Meadows, McGonigle and JHM plus Ty Madden came in at 107 on ESPN's list so right on the cusp. Having 8 different guys viewed that highly seems like the most we have had in decades cause even a few years when our system was rated as one of the best I believe it was more due to the top 4 or 5 guys and then a big drop off after that. 

A really impressive turnaround in just a year or 2 after Harris took over. The previous regime definitely deserves some credit since some of the player development improvements started under them but I think Harris and Co. took it to another level. 

When Avila took over, they could neither find nor develop players. Al did a lot on the 'finding' end, not much on the other. Would he have gotten there in time? Who knows? I think Avila's biggest problem wasn't not knowing what to do, it was not having nearly enough urgency about doing it - incremental change from year to year seem to be all he could manage. He wasn't backward in his approaches as much as just too slow, maybe too reluctant to break some china on his way.

[RandyMarsh]

1 minute ago, gehringer_2 said:

When Avila took over, they could neither find nor develop players. Al did a lot on the 'finding' end, not much on the other. Would he have gotten there in time? Who knows? I think Avila's biggest problem wasn't not knowing what to do, it was not having nearly enough urgency about doing it - incremental change from year to year seem to be all he could manage. He wasn't backward in his approaches as much as just too slow, maybe too reluctant to break some china on his way.

Yeah I think Avila's vision was correct but he just didn't seem to execute them the right way or in terms of trading guys I think he either didn't identify the right players from the other team or didn't trade the guys at the right time(JV being the biggest example). 

I do think he put more resources into analytics and the player development side of things and understood the importance of that but by the time he took over and was able to do that we were already so behind other teams it was impossible to catch up in any short amount of time.

Edman or Mark would definitely know more but it feels like we are now getting closer to majority of teams in those department, probably still way behind the top ones but I don't think we are near the bottom like we were.

[Topliner1903]

4 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I mentioned it before but its crazy to me how the Tigers can never seem to find a prospect that projects to be a two way player. By two way player I mean atleast can hold his own at a position, not necessarily even being plus or anything. Outside of Greene every prospect we've had in the past say 15 years they've all seem to essentially be position less or destined to DH. 

 

Max Clark should be that kind of two way player. 

[SoCalTiger]

3 hours ago, Topliner1903 said:

Max Clark should be that kind of two way player. 

McGonigal also. 

[LongLiveMaroth]

 

[RandyMarsh]

Max definitely doesn't skip leg day! 

[Tenacious D]

Got the bat flip down.  Hope he gets to use it often next season.

[1776]

The following is Keith Law’s commentary on Flores in his ranking of the Tigers top 20 prospects. He has Flores at #14. Interesting.

“Flores went to some outside pitching clinic in the 2022-23 offseason and it wrecked his delivery, as he was thrusting his whole lower half forward and his arm couldn’t catch up. He ended up dialing back his velocity to throw more strikes, but just when he was having some success, he hurt his hamstring and missed almost two months. He was 91-95 mph in the fall with a 55 slider and 45 changeup. I don’t know why he sought that additional counsel, but it’s probably set him back a year or two.”

 

 

Edited February 13 by 1776

[LongLiveMaroth]

33 minutes ago, 1776 said:

The following is Keith Law’s commentary on Flores in his ranking of the Tigers top 20 prospects. He has Flores at #14. Interesting.

“Flores went to some outside pitching clinic in the 2022-23 offseason and it wrecked his delivery, as he was thrusting his whole lower half forward and his arm couldn’t catch up. He ended up dialing back his velocity to throw more strikes, but just when he was having some success, he hurt his hamstring and missed almost two months. He was 91-95 mph in the fall with a 55 slider and 45 changeup. I don’t know why he sought that additional counsel, but it’s probably set him back a year or two.”

 

 

That is interesting, he had such a solid season before I wonder why he would go outside the org.

[LongLiveMaroth]

39 minutes ago, 1776 said:

The following is Keith Law’s commentary on Flores in his ranking of the Tigers top 20 prospects. He has Flores at #14. Interesting.

“Flores went to some outside pitching clinic in the 2022-23 offseason and it wrecked his delivery, as he was thrusting his whole lower half forward and his arm couldn’t catch up. He ended up dialing back his velocity to throw more strikes, but just when he was having some success, he hurt his hamstring and missed almost two months. He was 91-95 mph in the fall with a 55 slider and 45 changeup. I don’t know why he sought that additional counsel, but it’s probably set him back a year or two.”

 

 

Also interesting Hurter at 9 and Eddys Leonard at 11 and Dingler didn't make the top 20.

[RatkoVarda]

Law and FG both gushing about Josue Briceno's ceiling IF he can stay at C.

Crazy to think they actually might have a successful international signing?

[mtutiger]

1 hour ago, LongLiveMaroth said:

Also interesting Hurter at 9 and Eddys Leonard at 11 and Dingler didn't make the top 20.

The acquisition of Leonard in general was surprising in that he didn't seem like "cash considerations" material.

Don't want to overhype him either, just think it was a really small price to pay for a decent prospect.

[Tiger337]

12 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

Got the bat flip down.  Hope he gets to use it often next season.

Max knows that Max is good.  Max knows that Max will be a superstar some day.  Max is not signing a Colt Keith deal ahead of time.  Max is already planning the big bucks free agent contract that Max knows Max will get.  

[1776]

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Max knows that Max is good.  Max knows that Max will be a superstar some day.  Max is not signing a Colt Keith deal ahead of time.  Max is already planning the big bucks free agent contract that Max knows Max will get.  

So what you’re saying is…Max will get the Max.

[SoCalTiger]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Max knows that Max is good.  Max knows that Max will be a superstar some day.  Max is not signing a Colt Keith deal ahead of time.  Max is already planning the big bucks free agent contract that Max knows Max will get.  

See the Max……be the Max redo. 

[Tenacious D]

5 hours ago, mtutiger said:

The acquisition of Leonard in general was surprising in that he didn't seem like "cash considerations" material.

Don't want to overhype him either, just think it was a really small price to pay for a decent prospect.

I think it was a roster crunch issue with LA—they had to remove him from the 40-man.   If I had to guess, he was probably in the Eduardo trade, and when that fell apart, the Dodgers just moved him for enough cash that their players didn’t have to pay for soda the rest of the season.

[Tigeraholic1]