Tiger Cubs (notes on the minors)

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

Yeah I was thinking him or maybe a Mark Teixeira type if all goes well. Teixeira was consistently at or near All Star level but only had a couple seasons where he was really elite.

That of course would be a solid turnout but at the time of the draft I was hoping he'd be more of a Goldschmidt type, the type of guy who you could basically pencil in to be a top 5 or 10 hitter every year so "only" being a Teixeira or Konerko would be somewhat disappointing based off how I felt at draft time. 

If Tork ends up hitting like Konerko, he will be more valuable than Paulie because he is a better defender. I think that would make him a min 3 WAR/yr player and I'll take that for 10yrs anytime

Edited July 29, 2022 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

we'll be very lucky if tork turns into konerko.

konerko's minor league numbers were much better than tork's.

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, buddha said:

we'll be very lucky if tork turns into konerko.

konerko's minor league numbers were much better than tork's.

Paulie also had about 4x the amount of minor league ABs than Tork tho.

[Tiger337]

3 minutes ago, buddha said:

we'll be very lucky if tork turns into konerko.

konerko's minor league numbers were much better than tork's.

I don't think you can really make a comparison after just 555 minor league plate appearances for Torkelson and it's not like a .916 OPS is bad.  He probably should have spent another season in the minors.  

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, buddha said:

we'll be very lucky if tork turns into konerko.

konerko's minor league numbers were much better than tork's.

Being a HS draftee Konerko also got several hundred more AB at multiple levels so its a bit apples and oranges. They pushed Torkelson as hard as they could to try to make up for lost time so it's hard to say what he might have done in the minors on a more leisurely pace - it's just an unknown. You can just as easily turn it around and say Tork put up college numbers like few ever have. Whatever - he need's more nights like last night!

[mtutiger]

Just now, Tiger337 said:

I don't think you can really make a comparison after just 555 minor league plate appearances for Torkelson and it's not like a .916 OPS is bad.  He probably should have spent another season in the minors.  

Tork being a college player factors in, but the disparity in ABs (1900 versus 555) is pretty significant and doesn't make it a great 1 on 1 comparison regardless.

[RandyMarsh]

Plus Konerko played in the PCL which is notorious for having inflated numbers, the stadiums are all like a bunch of Coors Fields. 

[buddha]

8 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't think you can really make a comparison after just 555 minor league plate appearances for Torkelson and it's not like a .916 OPS is bad.  He probably should have spent another season in the minors.  

do you think we would be fortunate if tork turned into konerko, who is a borderline hall of famer?  i certainly do.

and regardless of whether its an apples to oranges comparison - because there can be no exact comparisons - they are both slow footed, big first basemen with good power, eye, and a major hit tool.  that's what we were told.  i think konerko is tork's ceiling.  and if he hit it, we should all be doing cartwheels.

as to their minor league careers, konerko had more at bats in the minors than tork, but he also did much better than tork.

everyone clamored for tork to make the opening day roster, turns out we were wrong.  he's not ready.

[buddha]

konerko was also drafted and developed by the dodgers, who have a long history of developing good players.

tork was drafted by and is being developed by the tigers....who....ummm....do not have a long history of developing good players.

[buddha]

10 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Plus Konerko played in the PCL which is notorious for having inflated numbers, the stadiums are all like a bunch of Coors Fields. 

he also tore up the IL after being traded to the reds.  with better numbers than tork at the same age and with more walks than strikeouts...which tork does not have.

look, tork has plenty of time and i do think he'll be a solid mlb player.  but i think it is unlikely he will be as good as konerko but if he was i would be ecstatic.

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, buddha said:

as to their minor league careers, konerko had more at bats in the minors than tork, but he also did much better than tork.

His OPS over his first 600 or so appearances was actually lower than Torkelson's. Admittedly he was at lower levels and younger, but again, it just isn't really a great comparison at all.

[mtutiger]

Overall, I agree with the idea that we would all be happy if Tork had a similar career to Paulie. They have very similar profiles with some subtle differences.

Just not sure I agree with making judgments about whether Tork can reach that ceiling or not because he has slightly lower career OPS than Paulie did with 1300 less ABs in the minor leagues.

Edited July 29, 2022 by mtutiger

[Edman85]

30 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't think you can really make a comparison after just 555 minor league plate appearances for Torkelson and it's not like a .916 OPS is bad.  He probably should have spent another season in the minors.  

But but but... the Twitter Pitch Forks for suppressing his service time!

[buddha]

9 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

His OPS over his first 600 or so appearances was actually lower than Torkelson's. Admittedly he was at lower levels and younger, but again, it just isn't really a great comparison at all.

its not a perfect comparison, but its fine when they get older.

[CMRivdogs]

Just looking at Baseball Reference, it wasn't until he was traded to the White Sox that Konerko started to bloom so to speak. His AAA numbers at Indianapolis and Albuquerque were good but both the Dodgers and Reds gave up on him. The Sox got him for Mike Cameron.

Quick aside I lived in the same apt building as Konerko in 1999 (across from Holy Nome Catherdal). I didn't know it until the season was over. I needed something from the mail room and saw a piece of mail on the table by the counter addressed to him from the Players Union. 

[mtutiger]

41 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Plus Konerko played in the PCL which is notorious for having inflated numbers, the stadiums are all like a bunch of Coors Fields. 

Probably have to consider the eras more generally that both came up in as well.... when comparing Konerko and Tork, you are comparing against eras as well, given the 1990s were a different time in terms of quality of pitching.

Doing a quick comparison of MLB between 1997 and 2021, there's a good 28 point difference or so in OPS between the two years (.756 vs. .728). Comparing against 2022, it's even worse (.756 vs. .708).

Comparing the two statistically provide a good baseline to look at them, no doubt, but I don't know how much Tork's minor league numbers against Konerko means in terms of assessing whether he can reach that level as a player.

Edited July 29, 2022 by mtutiger

[Shinzaki]

Konerko never dealt with tacky spiders or any of the other crapola associated with spin rates and such

[buddha]

actually a good comp for tork is andrew vaughn.

[RandyMarsh]

22 minutes ago, buddha said:

actually a good comp for tork is andrew vaughn.

Yeah I agree both were rated similar when they were prospects and often compared to each other. While not looking as bad as Tork has this year Vaughn did struggle a bit as a rookie and at times looked horrible but he has bounced back thisyear.  Basically what Vaughn has done this year is what we can hope for Tork to do next year.  I think Vaughn is going to get better to and eventually be an All Star level bat and unless there is something that can't be fixed with Tork I expect him to end up similar.  

[Tiger337]

Konerko got off to a bad start his first two years and then started hitting when he went to Chicago.  He had a 120 OPS+ with the White Sox which is right about what Vaughn is doing this year (122).  Konerko lasted a long time and had a couple of big years, but he wasn't a big star.  Torkelson might never hit, but hoping he hits like Konerko some day is not outrageous.  

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Konerko got off to a bad start his first two years and then started hitting when he went to Chicago.  He had a 120 OPS+ with the White Sox which is right about what Vaughn is doing this year (122).  Konerko lasted a long time and had a couple of big years, but he wasn't a big star.  Torkelson might never hit, but hoping he hits like Konerko some day is not outrageous.  

really, that's plenty enough even for a 1/1.  If Konerko doesn't hang on those last two seasons, he's a 30 WAR player, and that is a total dragged down by a good deal of negative DWAR.  Torkelson is a good defensive 1B. Couple that to Konerko's bat and that would be a big plus to any line-up.

Edited July 29, 2022 by gehringer_2

[CMRivdogs]

Keep in mind "New" Comiskey is a bandbox compared to Comerica. 

[gehringer_2]

At Toledo: Kreidler 2/4, 3B BB. Torkelson  0/4 but a bottom of the 9th walk to keep the line moving when Toledo was trying to mount a come back. (Game ended with Davis up again with the winning runs in scoring position but no walk off for Brendon tonight.)

[Tenacious D]

Andre Lipcius gets some love for the season he’s having (which has been good). However Andrew Navigato, also age 24 and in Erie, has matched him offensively. But hasn’t been mentioned much.  
 

 

[Tenacious D]

Dylan Smith (Lakeland) and Joey Wentz (WM) with successful two inning rehab starts tonight.  Brant Hurter came in to relieve Wentz and was again very good.