Tiger Cubs (notes on the minors)

[Tenacious D]

1 hour ago, irishpack said:

Pacheco at 19 years of age going to high A ball is impressive.  Tigers must think a lot of him.

I think it coincides with our recent draftees starting to get into games this weekend.

[chasfh]

The Avila regime has been taking a lot of heat lately for the failure of their past drafts and development efforts, so I can see them front-burnering promotions of multiple Pipeline-ranked prospects desperately seeking some win, any win on that front.

In that same vein, I also would not be surprised to see Sawyer Gipson-Long appear on the mound for the big club sometime before the end of the year.

[Tenacious D]

Just now, chasfh said:

The Avila regime has been taking a lot of heat lately for the failure of their past drafts and development efforts, so I can see them front-burnering promotions of multiple Pipeline-ranked prospects desperately seeking some win, any win on that front.

In that same vein, I also would not be surprised to see Sawyer Gipson-Long appear on the mound for the big club sometime before the end of the year.

Might be out of necessity at the rate we’re going through our young pitching.

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The Avila regime has been taking a lot of heat lately for the failure of their past drafts and development efforts, so I can see them front-burnering promotions of multiple Pipeline-ranked prospects desperately seeking some win, any win on that front.

Is that what you think is happening in any of the particular elevations outlined yesterday?

[mtutiger]

1 minute ago, Tenacious D said:

Might be out of necessity at the rate we’re going through our young pitching.

Whatever one thinks about Austin Bergner or Reese Olson or Wilmer Flores and how "real" they are or not, they are all guys we would likely see before we see Gipson-Long in the majors.

[Tenacious D]

7 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Whatever one thinks about Austin Bergner or Reese Olson or Wilmer Flores and how "real" they are or not, they are all guys we would likely see before we see Gipson-Long in the majors.

Olson has taken steps back, so I wouldn’t put him in with the other two, but agree with your general point.  Hurter looking good, too.

[RatkoVarda]

many of the young arms, regardless of level, are going to hit their innings limits soon. So come September none of those guys will be pitching in Det

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, casimir said:

I guess ignoring the system ratings, where is the stream of prospects that the improved drafting & developing that was talked about?  Whatever happened to Caesar?  What is in Toledo that is just about major league ready?

That's a lot of mediocrity.  Where is the fruit of the higher draft position?

One step backwards and the Sky is Falling.

I guess NO backward steps can EVER be allowed for the Detroit Tigers. Only linear steps forwards and upwards to World Series Championships because... that's how the world works, right?

Every.

Single.

Time.

Yeah...

[buddha]

17 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

One step backwards and the Sky is Falling.

I guess NO backward steps can EVER be allowed for the Detroit Tigers. Only linear steps forwards and upwards to World Series Championships because... that's how the world works, right?

Every.

Single.

Time.

Yeah...

as you would say....HYPERBOLE.  lol.

its going to take time to see results from the new scouting and development system installed a few years ago.  and prospect rankings are notoriously volatile.

that said, gotta pick it up Al.  you sold the rebuild and you sold the end of the rebuild.  the results from this seem.....poor so far.

[1984Echoes]

I'm feeling very mixed on the job Al is doing lately...

And it's not based on this season's record... I get that the team is not guaranteed to take a step forward every single year... and with a boatload of very, very young pitchers, maybe we should have expected the same amount of injuries we've had this year when we went from a 10% pandemic year to a 100% full-blown schedule... with all these young arms. Or maybe we are demanding too much spin rates (arm/ UCL torque) from these arms. 

I also support the changes that Al has made to our system in the draft and development side. And actually think our system has a lot more in the pipeline than what their "rankings" say...

But on the flip side... it just seems like we should have "more": more International development/ investment/ productive players. More/ higher level of trade returns/ pro-active trading. Higher standards for players on the field.

I'm generally optimistic (just in case that wasn't known), and I still see lots of positives in our future...

So I don't want to implode over this season. It's a step back. Which sucks. But we were NOT guaranteed only steps forward. And given multiple "meh" players that we were fielding, the overabundance of young pitchers and young pitcher arm troubles... maybe we could have foreseen this step backwards.

But I do want more. And if that means kicking Al upstairs (the most likely scenario) and bringing in a young hot shot GM from Tampa or wherever, who can seriously move this team forward and back into contention, I am all for that. I believe I was fine/ for that earlier this year... but may not have been vocal about it.

Summary: I still think this team is headed in the right direction, despite this year's backwards step, it might take a couple of years, I see lots of talent in the minors, even if no one else does... but is there anyway of moving this team faster into the modern age? And if that means kicking Al up and bringing in a hot shot... I am all for it.

[StatikIEV]

5 hours ago, casimir said:

Or they could draft & develop a strong system such that one graduate doesn't spiral the minor system to the bottom third.

I am going to cautiously go against the flow here and say the minor league development system of late hasn't been that bad. Not saying great...but this year sucks at the pro level, especially given expectation (as did the last xx years), so I think the reflex is to call everything a dumpster fire in the moment.

We have been fairly lopsided to bringing in pitching depth the past few years in the draft (and acquisitions)...and I'm not sure one can call the results in this area a failure at this point.  Now, I could point to a lot of injuries...but even still, what has managed to somehow stay on the field hasn't been too bad.  The bullpen pitchers specifically have had a lot less time on the IL (relatively speaking) and well, pretty good results.

When all the results are in someday, even for the SPs, are you comfortable going on the record today saying Skubal, Mize, Manning, Jobe, Madden, Turnbull, Brieske, Flores, Bergner (and the other half dozen lottery tickets we have) are all busts? I dare anyone to go on record and give out a number less than 50 WAR on the group.

Now, hitters...yeah...woof.  When we have taken them (outside of this year), it's been very high...specifically speaking to Torkelson and Greene (because I don't wanna split hairs on the others endlessly)

Tork and Greene's early failures have been spectacular (sidenote: we are pretending hard that Greene is doing well so far...but really, he's been hot garbage too for a supposed 1st overall prospect.  .2 WAR for a quarter of a season?  ...and dropping fast.  Our boy has a serious, Baddoo-sized hole against strong curveballs/higher end breaking stuff..and MLB has figured it out of late.  Hopefully his skill level is such that adjustments can be made).

 

However, they are both very recent former #1 prospects..and the adage that hitting (and winning) is contagious, and you have to give young hitters some MLB ABs and experience before you know what you have got is true. Newbs generally suck for a time...regardless of skill level.

 

A good amount of trouble with them is likely a mix of inexperience, pressure...and more significantly we are giving them BAD MLB EXPERIENCE 24/7...watching our legion of underachievers, who are supposed to be major leaguers, be put in the lineup EVERYDAY, and go up there and fail ALL season long (insert Grossman, Candy, Schoop, Baez, all-singles-Miggy, Barnhardt, no-power Meadows,etc)..coming back to the bench and moping around.  Every. Frigging. One. Of. Them. (maybe outside of Haase in the past couple weeks).

 

So yeah.  Management sucks   AL sucks. Hinch is suss. Their pro talent assembly skills, lineup assemby, and cheapness to date is epically bad.  There isn't even an excuse...which is why I'm putting Hinch in the 'suss' category now.

As an example... let's get Baez, when all our division rivals combined started the year with 1 lefty starter and Baez is a career 730 OPS against righties...that should be fine right?  That's worth 23 million!  As always, he is over 900 against LHP this year.. too bad he has only gotten 80 abs against lefties.  No excuse for this.

Batting old man Cabrera 3rd and 4th all year, every game?  I mean, I get it...everyone loves the teddy bear and we still have to pay him out...but he weighs 280lbs, is immobile, has nothing left in his legs...has 13 XBH as a full-time DH in more than 350 PAs so far...THIRTEEN!  There is no current ballplayer you give 350PAs to over 100 games that could do worse....this dude is our 3/4 in the lineup guy?  He should be Pujol'd, AKA he comes out to wave..and get ABs against soft throwing lefties and when the game is out if hand (or a guy on 3rd and 1 out...preferably no one on first at the time).  And if he gets a day off...oh, how about no power Harold, or Grossman, or vertigo/covid/bad achilles Meadows pencilled in there?  No excuse.  The young guys, especially the pitchers, see this nonesense, these non merit/non baseball based decisions being made, and forced failure being put upon them and the team...they sit there and quietly take it.  No wonder hopelessness and failure finds them.

But I can still excuse, or not find 'that' much fault for those in the org who have been attempting to find talent for the team and who they have assembled.  The group of pitchers and players developed and drafted the past 5-6 years are not battle tested yet, they haven't been given their due reps as healthy MLBers on a functional/sound pro club. 

I'd be petrified to box them all up and ship them to a sound fundamental ballclub, that makes rational decisions at the major league level and see how they turn out...and I think if others were honest with themselves...they would be too.

 

So yeah...I guess I had somethings bottled up.  /rant off.  /clean house

Edited August 3, 2022 by StatikIEV
Oh my spelling and grammar...so bad

[TigerNation]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

He's seems very steady - no 4/4s  but very few 0/4. Only 2 games in July without a hit. Doesn't walk much though.

10.2% is a plus BB%.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, TigerNation said:

10.2% is a plus BB%.

he started out with double digit walks early but had dropped off to more like 6% more recently (12 in his last 187 PA). Not terrible, would just like to see more at A ball in a promising bat since it  may/probably will fall at each succeeding level.

Edited August 3, 2022 by gehringer_2

[casimir]

5 hours ago, mtutiger said:

You're asking me?

The guy and gals that would know are down at 2100 Woodward Ave. 

No, not you specifically.  This is a broad question for the room.

But you kind'of sound guilty.  So fess up.

[casimir]

3 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

One step backwards and the Sky is Falling.

I guess NO backward steps can EVER be allowed for the Detroit Tigers. Only linear steps forwards and upwards to World Series Championships because... that's how the world works, right?

Every.

Single.

Time.

Yeah...

Keep quadrupling down on the failure of Avila's tenure.  Never change.

[pyrotigers]

I actually don't know why they would have traded for the Gipson guy if he wasn't going to start in mlb. He's old with a low ceiling but his peripherals are pretty good. 

Seems like the guy you make your fifth starter and hope he can give you a 4.5 Era and some innings 

So you know, 4A trash/filler

[alex]

5 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

I'm feeling very mixed on the job Al is doing lately...

And it's not based on this season's record... I get that the team is not guaranteed to take a step forward every single year... and with a boatload of very, very young pitchers, maybe we should have expected the same amount of injuries we've had this year when we went from a 10% pandemic year to a 100% full-blown schedule... with all these young arms. Or maybe we are demanding too much spin rates (arm/ UCL torque) from these arms. 

I also support the changes that Al has made to our system in the draft and development side. And actually think our system has a lot more in the pipeline than what their "rankings" say...

But on the flip side... it just seems like we should have "more": more International development/ investment/ productive players. More/ higher level of trade returns/ pro-active trading. Higher standards for players on the field.

I'm generally optimistic (just in case that wasn't known), and I still see lots of positives in our future...

So I don't want to implode over this season. It's a step back. Which sucks. But we were NOT guaranteed only steps forward. And given multiple "meh" players that we were fielding, the overabundance of young pitchers and young pitcher arm troubles... maybe we could have foreseen this step backwards.

But I do want more. And if that means kicking Al upstairs (the most likely scenario) and bringing in a young hot shot GM from Tampa or wherever, who can seriously move this team forward and back into contention, I am all for that. I believe I was fine/ for that earlier this year... but may not have been vocal about it.

Summary: I still think this team is headed in the right direction, despite this year's backwards step, it might take a couple of years, I see lots of talent in the minors, even if no one else does... but is there anyway of moving this team faster into the modern age? And if that means kicking Al up and bringing in a hot shot... I am all for it.

Well put and some good points. I am 'cautiously' optimistic as well.

It just seems in today's game and the depth that organizations go to with data, positions created and filled, etc. that even if strong in several areas a weakness or two can be glaring and even crippling.

This makeover does take time. Bigger changes/additions have only been more recent - but in today's world patience is not for long.

[mtutiger]

Nice outing for Jobe today

[Tigermojo]

14 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Nice outing for Jobe today

Almost identical to deGrom last night. Jobe = deGrom. Jobe deGoat!

[buddha]

2 hours ago, pyrotigers said:

I actually don't know why they would have traded for the Gipson guy if he wasn't going to start in mlb. He's old with a low ceiling but his peripherals are pretty good. 

Seems like the guy you make your fifth starter and hope he can give you a 4.5 Era and some innings 

So you know, 4A trash/filler

well....we usually draft those guys in the first round so.....progress!

[RandyMarsh]

1 hour ago, Tigermojo said:

Almost identical to deGrom last night. Jobe = deGrom. Jobe deGoat!

A non Soto and Bell Nationals lineup like deGrom faced probably is equal to A ball at this point so I cosign this post!

[RandyMarsh]

Tork 2-3 with a BB an no Ks today. He's starting to pick it up the last few games after the dreadful start in Toledo. Granted keeping tabs on what he is doing in Toledo and celebrating a decent week down there isn't exactly what me or any of us hoped we'd be doing at this point but it's still nice to see him making a little progress.

[Edman85]

10 hours ago, RatkoVarda said:

many of the young arms, regardless of level, are going to hit their innings limits soon. So come September none of those guys will be pitching in Det

I'm coming around on thinking innings limits are dumb, or at the very best, arbitrary.

[microline133]

Identify the guys that can get outs at the big league level, get them there as quick as reasonably possible, and use them how you need to until they break. That's the strategy and that's the reality. Anything else is all bull shit.

[Tiger337]

16 minutes ago, microline133 said:

Identify the guys that can get outs at the big league level, get them there as quick as reasonably possible, and use them how you need to until they break. That's the strategy and that's the reality. Anything else is all bull shit.

Same as it's always been. You don't want your young pitchers racking up 130 innings in starts, but I don't really see pitchers being healthier today than the used to be.  All the protective measures don't seem to be keeping pitchers healthier.  Medical advances are healing pitchers a lot better than the old days, but they are still getting hurt in great numbers.