Tiger Cubs (notes on the minors)

[buddha]

al avila is the 4th longest tenured gm in baseball.

only cashman, rizzo, and rick hahn have been there longer.  all three of whom have actually had success on the field, unlike avila.

[mtutiger]

On the question of Avila... the org made a bunch of hires on the developmental side, particular on growing the use if analytics in player development. (Ryan Garko, Gabe Rivas, Stephanos Stroop, etc.), and got a rid of Dave Littlefield and others as well.

From a practical standpoint, if you sack Al Avila, wouldn't the likeliest outcome be that you risk losing these guys you just hired and replacing them as well?

It's not even that I'm saying that Al has done a good job or not but rather that the org has, while way too delayed, made a lot of personnel decisions and reorg already even with him still being here.

The likeliest outcome, imo, is that he ends up in a President role and that someone else will end up GM sooner or later. If he was at risk of being fired, I'm not sure they would have made all the org moves they did beforehand.

Edited May 8, 2022 by mtutiger

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

On the question of Avila... the org made a bunch of hires on the developmental side, particular on growing the use if analytics in player development. (Ryan Garko, Gabe Rivas, Stephanos Stroop, etc.), and got a rid of Dave Littlefield and others as well.

From a practical standpoint, if you sack Al Avila, wouldn't the likeliest outcome be that you risk losing these guys you just hired and replacing them as well?

It's not even that I'm saying that Al has done a good job or not but rather that the org has, while way too delayed, made a lot of personnel decisions and reorg already even with him still being here.

The likeliest outcome, imo, is that he ends up in a President role and that someone else will end up GM sooner or later. If he was at risk of being fired, I'm not sure they would have made all the org moves they did beforehand.

If any one in the org is in the cross hairs today (and I don't believe anyone actually is) it would be Hinch.  GM's don't get blamed when guys under perform their lifetime averages, managers and position coaches do. 

[Jim Cowan]

35 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

If any one in the org is in the cross hairs today (and I don't believe anyone actually is) it would be Hinch.  GM's don't get blamed when guys under perform their lifetime averages, managers and position coaches do. 

I believe that and I also believe that if Avila gets fired Hinch is going with him, like Smith and Garner.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

If any one in the org is in the cross hairs today (and I don't believe anyone actually is) it would be Hinch.  GM's don't get blamed when guys under perform their lifetime averages, managers and position coaches do. 

how about the guy who has been in charge of player acquisition for 8 years and the farm system is still largely bare other than top 10 picks?  can we fire that guy instead of the guy who managed a world series team?

[Jim Cowan]

19 minutes ago, buddha said:

how about the guy who has been in charge of player acquisition for 8 years and the farm system is still largely bare other than top 10 picks?  can we fire that guy instead of the guy who managed a world series team?

I don't think that either one is getting fired but if Avila does, it might be because hiring Hinch the miracle worker was the last straw for Ilitch and he cans both of them.  He's still waiting to see any evidence that Hinch gets better results than the next stiff who comes along.  He'd make more money with a winning team and these guys are spinning their wheels.

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

how about the guy who has been in charge of player acquisition for 8 years and the farm system is still largely bare other than top 10 picks?  can we fire that guy instead of the guy who managed a world series team?

you still may not like the development system but Schoop, Baez, Meadows, Haase, Candelario aren't slumping because of it.

[casimir]

9 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

I believe that and I also believe that if Avila gets fired Hinch is going with him, like Smith and Garner.

I’m not sure about Hinch being swept out with Avila, but it depends upon when Avila is pushed out and who replaces him.  Probably more than latter than the former.

[gehringer_2]

53 minutes ago, casimir said:

I’m not sure about Hinch being swept out with Avila, but it depends upon when Avila is pushed out and who replaces him.  Probably more than latter than the former.

I don't think anyone is going anywhere anytime soon. They have no choice but to ride it out. I think the only question left is if they really get themselves in a hole (well, they already have) do you sort of pull the plug on any dream of competing and start looking at Clemens and Dingler and Wentz and Cameron (again!) and decide you are going to move veteran pitching depth (Pineda, ERod) or even one of the younger pitchers to restock the position cupboard for next year. 

All I know is that I've come to appreciate the game day animation. It's a lot less frustrating keeping tabs on team playing horrible baseball that way than having to actually watch......🤮

Edited May 9, 2022 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

5 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

you still may not like the development system but Schoop, Baez, Meadows, Haase, Candelario aren't slumping because of it.

and you think they're slumping because of something the manager did?

so the avila apologists say that he should be retained because of the new analytics and development tools avila has put into place (that they only know about because avila let the press write stories about it like it was something new and that the rest of the league hadnt been doing for years).  yet, when that supposedly great new analytics tool doesnt produce results, its the manager's fault?

i understand some of you will never excuse hinch from the astros situation, but he took this same garbage talent to 75+ wins last year.  the fact that you wishcasted this team into contention this year is on you and your belief in the media hype.  not on reality.

avila had been in charge for 8 years of the worst years in tigers franchise history.  there is very little difference between avila and randy smith.  when chris illitch wakes up, he'll realize that and hopefully hire someone who can do the job othe than draft the consensus top player #1 in the draft.

[buddha]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

I don't think anyone is going anywhere anytime soon. They have no choice but to ride it out. I think the only question left is if they really get themselves in a hole (well, they already have) do you sort of pull the plug on trying to win every game and start looking at Clemens and Dingler and Wentz and Cameron (again!) and decide you are going to move veteran pitching depth (Pineda, ERod) or even one of the younger pitchers to restock the position cupboard for next year.

or you could hire a general manager who can acquire good talent in the draft outside the top 5 picks.  that would help.

[gehringer_2]

13 minutes ago, buddha said:

and you think they're slumping because of something the manager did?

so the avila apologists say that he should be retained because of the new analytics and development tools avila has put into place (that they only know about because avila let the press write stories about it like it was something new and that the rest of the league hadnt been doing for years).  yet, when that supposedly great new analytics tool doesnt produce results, its the manager's fault?

i understand some of you will never excuse hinch from the astros situation, but he took this same garbage talent to 75+ wins last year.  the fact that you wishcasted this team into contention this year is on you and your belief in the media hype.  not on reality.

avila had been in charge for 8 years of the worst years in tigers franchise history.  there is very little difference between avila and randy smith.  when chris illitch wakes up, he'll realize that and hopefully hire someone who can do the job othe than draft the consensus top player #1 in the draft.

I think you are confusing me with someone else, I don't think I've ever made any particular deal about Hinch's troubles in Houston. Beside, as per my last post, I'm speaking purely hypothetically, I don't don't actually think anyone is going anywhere. But *IF* I'm an owner whose trigger finger is getting itchy and a bunch of veteran guys are playing below their capabilities I don't see any connection to the GM that managed to bring them together, I would ( if I were going to) have to go after the management on the field.

>and you think they're slumping because of something the manager did?

Did the Red Wings start playing badly because of something Blashill suddenly changed in what he was doing? Field managers/coaches take the fall for players who don't play as well as they are expected to. That just is the way it is.

But again, I don't expect anyone is taking a fall in the Tiger FO in any immediate future.

Edited May 9, 2022 by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

9 minutes ago, buddha said:

i understand some of you will never excuse hinch from the astros situation, but he took this same garbage talent to 75+ wins last year. 

He took them to 75+ wins or they got lucky last year?

I don't think he's the problem.  Players win games, not managers.  I am just amused that every time something good happens, he is a genius and every time something bad happens, it's Avila's fault.  

[mtutiger]

19 minutes ago, buddha said:

and you think they're slumping because of something the manager did?

so the avila apologists say that he should be retained because of the new analytics and development tools avila has put into place (that they only know about because avila let the press write stories about it like it was something new and that the rest of the league hadnt been doing for years).  yet, when that supposedly great new analytics tool doesnt produce results, its the manager's fault?

Not sure who you are referring to, probably me, but I honestly don't care if Avila goes or not. My only point is the new hires in minor league development are a tell that its not going to happen. The team wouldn't be doing a big reorg if Al's departure was imminent. 

Regarding your comment about the press, Cody Stavenhagen at The Athletic, who is pretty independent on his reporting and not above criticising the front office, has reported extensively on this. And no, it hasn't been reported as being a novel concept.

19 minutes ago, buddha said:

I understand some of you will never excuse hinch from the astros situation, but he took this same garbage talent to 75+ wins last year.  the fact that you wishcasted this team into contention this year is on you and your belief in the media hype.  not on reality.

AJ is great, hope he manages here for a long time. But he isn't above criticism, especially for in game decisions.

Nor is everything that positive that happens on him or negative on Avila. This team, whatever it's talent level, is populated by professional athletes with track records. And, to G2s earlier point, at some level, the guys need some scrutiny too when they don't match up with track record. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

He took them to 75+ wins or they got lucky last year?

I don't think he's the problem.  Players win games, not managers.  I am just amused that every time something good happens, he is a genius and every time something bad happens, it's Avila's fault.  

The current dynamic reminds a little of the Millen/Mariucci era for the Detroit Lions where people's (accurate) views on Millen really clouded or impeded a lot of justified criticism of the coaching staff, particularly a coach coming from a winning culture/franchise into a less successful one.

I suspect that it will work out more successfully in this case, but from my recollection, similar dynamics at play.

[Jim Cowan]

51 minutes ago, buddha said:

and you think they're slumping because of something the manager did?

No.  No one is blaming him for below-normal individual performances. 

[mtutiger]

 

[RatkoVarda]

Clemens got another start at 1b; should be swapping place with Tork in the next few days.

[gehringer_2]

Colt Keith: 2/3 BB 2B HR. 932 OPS. 

[Jim Cowan]

Baddoo 0 for 5 in his debut but only K'd once, and threw out a guy at home from left field.  I want to see him get 100 PA's in the next 30 days.

[Jim Cowan]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

Colt Keith: 2/3 BB 2B HR. 932 OPS. 

Some guys just look like hitters.  He does.

[mtutiger]

8 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Colt Keith: 2/3 BB 2B HR. 932 OPS. 

If he keeps it up, he'll be heading down 131 and hanging a left on I-90 soon, one would think.

Was nice to see Dylan Smith get back on track on this outing, though only 3 K's 

Edited May 11, 2022 by mtutiger

[Dave Christian]

I expect that Torkelson will be sent down at the end of the A's series.

He's looking pretty sad for a #1 pick.

[gehringer_2]

8 minutes ago, Dave Christian said:

I expect that Torkelson will be sent down at the end of the A's series.

He's looking pretty sad for a #1 pick.

But, IIRC he is also the 1st position player in the 1st 20 picks of his draft to have been promoted to the majors, they Tigers might be a little ahead of themselves with him.

[RandyMarsh]

Also its not uncommon for even the best prospects to struggle out of the gate in the big leagues. Iirc Trout didnt exactly light the world on fire in his first stint in 2011.