Random NFL comments/thoughts

[gehringer_2]

Yeah - I don't think the major reason there are fewer black OCs is because there are more black players. I would  guess a bigger factor would be that more black players that don't make the NFL are coming from out of poorer educational and social preparation and thus are behind more of the their peer white players in the kind of communication presentation skills that teams look for in coaches. And not only the level to which this may be true in reality, but the degree to which it's true in the self perception of black athletes that don't have the confidence to pursue coaching. One of the things that recent research in college student success shows is that a person's belief in their ability to learn new skills has almost as much to do with their success as their initial skill set. 

This is the 'beauty' of American institutional racism. It's no-one's individual fault. Keep a minority segregated so it can be economically and educationally disadvantaged and the lack of opportunity takes care of itself.

Edited February 3, 2022 by gehringer_2

[RedRamage]

17 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

But then you get an example of Adam Gace or even Josh McDaniels, who were total disasters the first time, but get a second shot before a lot of Black candidates get their first.    McDaniels isn't as bad because he's had a decade to think about what he did wrong, but Adam Gace got a gig right away after getting canned in Miami.     Plus, a guy like Steve Wilks gets 1 year, the first of a rebuild with a Mike Glenon and Josh Rosen at QB, while he's replaced by Kliff Kingsbury, who was 35-40 in college and had his teams collapse in the 2nd half, just like he does now.   Kliff Kingsbury seems, at best, a coordinator or even a QB coach.      What, does Eric Bieniemy go into interviews and burp and fart or check texts during the interview?  I don't know.  Where is the disconnect here?     I don't think there is a effort to hold anyone back, not an overt one, anyway, but it's just very noticible.   

I'm not going to say that racism isn't/hasn't ever been involved.  I'm not in the hiring rooms or the minds of the people making the decisions.  I suspect that there very much was racism in the past and I wouldn't be at all surprised if current decisions weren't at least influenced by racism.  I wouldn't shock me if some of the old owners at the very least didn't lean in the direction of favoring whites.

I don't doubt that you can find many, many examples of white guys who seemed to get hired without a good track record or retained longer than you'd expect... but I'd also argue that you find white guys who were seemingly passed over as well.  And there very well might be legitimate reasons why someone like Bieniemy goes get hired other than passing gas in the interview.

There was a time when I was accused of racism for questioning a certain activity with a customer at my work place many years ago. The individual was black and felt I singled him out for further "inspection" because he was black.  The reality was that there was a very specific red flag that showed up that prompted me to further investigate. When he complained to my boss, my boss explained why I did what I did and the customer rejected that reasoning even though I still stand behind that reasoning, as did my boss at the time as did his boss at the time.

I know I'm going off on a tangent here a bit, but what I'm trying to say is there MAY be very legitimate reasons why a candidate is passed over, fired, whatever that doesn't involve racism.  Given the very small sample size it's not valid, in my mind to assume any specific action is because of racism.

Now, on the flip side, given past history combined with the reality that (right now) there's only one Black HC in the NFL that it's fair to wonder if racism is involved and it's far to call on the NFL to take measures to ensure that racism isn't involved.  The NFL has done that to some level (The original Rooney rule, changes and improvements to the Rooney Rule, incentivizing the develop of minority coaches and executives, Minority Coaching Fellowship Program) but I, for one, would like to see more efforts.

A few of the hirings I've been involved with have included an "inclusion advocate."  This is always a minority who is involved and who's job it is to ensure that the hiring process gives minorities a fair shot. I would say that the NFL should create an office, staffed by minorities, that dispatches people (again minorities) to sit in on an HC, OC, DC, GM, and maybe other select staffing position hiring processes.  This could provide an independent, yet still confidential, way to ensure the process is fair.

[sagnam]

The fun of implicit bias is that many of the biases are completely unrecognized and unintentional. That doesn't mean they are not there. That's why it's important to consistently reflect on past decisions.  Also to holistically look back at the major trends instead of focusing on the anecdotes.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

But then you get an example of Adam Gace or even Josh McDaniels, who were total disasters the first time, but get a second shot before a lot of Black candidates get their first.    McDaniels isn't as bad because he's had a decade to think about what he did wrong, but Adam Gace got a gig right away after getting canned in Miami.     Plus, a guy like Steve Wilks gets 1 year, the first of a rebuild with a Mike Glenon and Josh Rosen at QB, while he's replaced by Kliff Kingsbury, who was 35-40 in college and had his teams collapse in the 2nd half, just like he does now.   Kliff Kingsbury seems, at best, a coordinator or even a QB coach.      What, does Eric Bieniemy go into interviews and burp and fart or check texts during the interview?  I don't know.  Where is the disconnect here?     I don't think there is a effort to hold anyone back, not an overt one, anyway, but it's just very noticible.   

i thought i explained this before about bienemy.  

he has a past that includes multiple duis, allegations that he physically assaulted women, and was part of a coaching staff that covered up sexual assault violations at colorado.

you like to talk about banning players and coaches for past allegations, and you are all about eric bienemy?

if bienemy hasnt gotten a job its not because he's black, its because he's got a rap sheet a mile long.

[Motor City Sonics]

It's interesting that I am not hearing much about Byron Leftwich.  At one point he was the Jags new coach but it sounds like the Jags jumped the gun there and now that is totally off?      I am wondering if Bruce Arians has told him he's only coaching another year so stick around but if I'm Leftwich, I jump now.   A year of being OC with Kyle Trask or Jimmy G or someone like that at QB and you may not look quite as good.      I have no idea if Brian Daboll was a good OC, he had Josh Allen and it sure seems like Josh Allen made a lot of broken plays suddenly work.   

[buddha]

amd i dont think that should automatically mean bienemy doesnt get a job.  the past is the past and if he's moved on and wont do that stuff again, it shouldnt be held against him.

that said, i can see why a pr conscious nfl team wouldnt hire him because of it.

[Motor City Sonics]

1 minute ago, buddha said:

i thought i explained this before about bienemy.  

he has a past that includes multiple duis, allegations that he physically assaulted women, and was part of a coaching staff that covered up sexual assault violations at colorado.

you like to talk about banning players and coaches for past allegations, and you are all about eric bienemy?

if bienemy hasnt gotten a job its not because he's black, its because he's got a rap sheet a mile long.

But here we had a defensive coach who crashed his car coming from a strip club and there was cocaine in the car..........he still got the gig.  And that's the stick-up-their-ass Fords.   

 

Oh yeah, it was his son's cocaine..............

[buddha]

3 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

But here we had a defensive coach who crashed his car coming from a strip club and there was cocaine in the car..........he still got the gig.  And that's the stick-up-their-ass Fords.   

 

Oh yeah, it was his son's cocaine..............

that was 1987...

[Motor City Sonics]

Plus we have one current owner in DC who seems to have been running his front office like Delta house and another owner who was busted for DWI with a briefcase full of opiates, that if he wasn't a billionaire, would have landed him jail for over a decade.   They don't get forced out of the league.    Jim Harbaugh's had a DUIs, maybe even two, didn't stop him from getting a gig.  

[buddha]

Just now, Motor City Sonics said:

Plus we have one current owner in DC who seems to have been running his front office like Delta house and another owner who was busted for DWI with a briefcase full of opiates, that if he wasn't a billionaire, would have landed him jail for over a decade.   They don't get forced out of the league.    Jim Harbaugh's had a DUIs, maybe even two, didn't stop him from getting a gig.  

and?  

eric bienemy was part of a cover up of sexual assault at colorado.  you complain constantly about michigan's dr anderson problem but you want bienemy to be a head coach?

dont be a hypocrite.  sometimes black guys dont get hired for reasons other than their skin color.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

Yeah - I don't think the major reason there are fewer black OCs is because there are more black players. I would  guess a bigger factor would be that more black players that don't make the NFL are coming from out of poorer educational and social preparation and thus are behind more of the their peer white players in the kind of communication presentation skills that teams look for in coaches. And not only the level to which this may be true in reality, but the degree to which it's true in the self perception of black athletes that don't have the confidence to pursue coaching. One of the things that recent research in college student success shows is that a person's belief in their ability to learn new skills has almost as much to do with their success as their initial skill set. 

This is the 'beauty' of American institutional racism. It's no-one's individual fault. Keep a minority segregated so it can be economically and educationally disadvantaged and the lack of opportunity takes care of itself.

i dont think thats the issue.  white college football coaches arent any smarter than anyone else.  

i think the issue is getting qualified candidates in the pipeline.  the lack of black candidates came from years of discrimination and not allowing them to coach.  now you have more candidates slowly working their way through the system and more are getting hired.  the nfl is trying to incentivize their hiring and that's a good thing.  i think you'll see more of them hired in the future.

[gehringer_2]

5 minutes ago, buddha said:

white college football coaches arent any smarter than anyone else. 

how did you get to there from my post?

But yes the pipeline is exactly the problem. I'm less optimistic than you that it is still not a 'supply side' problem. Formal discrimination has been over for decades and colleges still compete tooth and nail with one another to find minority students ready for entry and still have poor total minority enrollment despite their best DEI efforts.

[Motown Bombers]

It's interesting the same people outraged that Bienemy hasn't been hired are the same ones who would be outraged if a white coach had that sort of criminal history. They are also the same people who wanted to cancel Chauncey Billups because of an allegation from 1997 in favor of a white woman. 

[buddha]

4 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

how did you get to there from my post?

But yes the pipeline is exactly the problem. I'm less optimistic than you that it is still not a 'supply side' problem. Formal discrimination has been over for decades and colleges still compete tooth and nail with one another to find minority students ready for entry and still have poor total minority enrollment despite their best DEI efforts.

sorry, i should have said i think the educational opportunities offered to whites that black coaches may not have had is not the reason.

[buddha]

4 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

It's interesting the same people outraged that Bienemy hasn't been hired are the same ones who would be outraged if a white coach had that sort of criminal history. They are also the same people who wanted to cancel Chauncey Billups because of an allegation from 1997 in favor of a white woman. 

i thought it was funny how the next generation of podcasters and writers were up in arms about derrick rose being signed while also genuflecting at how awesome chauncey billups was.

ummmm...you all know chauncey paid off a woman who accused him of sexual assault, right?

[Motown Bombers]

Uh oh

 

[MichiganCardinal]

59 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

It's interesting that I am not hearing much about Byron Leftwich.  At one point he was the Jags new coach but it sounds like the Jags jumped the gun there and now that is totally off?      I am wondering if Bruce Arians has told him he's only coaching another year so stick around but if I'm Leftwich, I jump now.   A year of being OC with Kyle Trask or Jimmy G or someone like that at QB and you may not look quite as good.      I have no idea if Brian Daboll was a good OC, he had Josh Allen and it sure seems like Josh Allen made a lot of broken plays suddenly work.   

The reports made it sound like he was their guy, but then he said that he wouldn't join unless the Jags got rid of Baalke (which was reportedly said by a lot of HC candidates they interviewed, including Caldwell). Some reports about a week ago indicated that they canned Baalke and hired Adrian Wilson from the Cardinals, and were planning to then hire Leftwich. Nothing has come from the club since then though, and the team site still lists Baalke as the GM.

The most recent report I saw from yesterday is that Shad Khan asked one of their candidates (unnamed) whether they would be willing to work with Baalke, while Baalke was in the same room.

It reads to me like the Jaguars, at least for now, are planning to inexplicably stick with Trent Baalke as GM (who is both not good and who no one likes), and try to find a candidate who will work with him. Which has eliminated pretty much everyone they have already interviewed.

[buddha]

38 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Uh oh

 

how do you prove something like that?

i think we've all been in interviews where we knew were werent getting the job.  half the thing is getting your name out there, that youre interested in moving up and - in the case of nfl assistants - getting your name on people's radars.

[MichiganCardinal]

28 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Uh oh

 

It wouldn't surprise me. The Lions in 2018 knew they wanted Patricia from the outset in the same way the 2022 Giants knew they wanted Daboll. To be fair though, Austin was an internal interview of an outgoing regime that was terminated for performance. I think that interview is going to be inherently different than an external candidate's interview, and I don't think anyone (within or outside the organization) thought Austin or JBC had a legitimate shot at the job, even ignoring Patricia's presence.

Also from the article:

Quote

Along with Austin, the Lions interviewed then-Lions offensive coordinator Jim Bob Cooter, then-Minnesota Vikings offensive coordinator Pat Shurmur, then-Houston Texans defensive coordinator Mike Vrabel and then-Green Bay Packers associate head coach Winston Moss for the head coaching position before hiring Patricia.

All six candidates went through a similar interviews with Quinn and Lions president Rod Wood asked the same series of questions.

Then-Carolina Panthers defensive coordinator Steve Wilks also declined an interview request with the Lions during that hiring cycle.

Austin, Moss and Wilks are Black. Wilks, who was hired as Cardinals head that winter — and fired after one season — said in December 2018 that he did not want to interview with the Lions because he believed Patricia was a lock to get the job.

I'd be curious to see Austin's response to all candidates having been asked the same series of questions, but this just feels like a whole lot of bitter nothingness to me.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

i thought i explained this before about bienemy.  

Matt Patricia was accused, but never prosecuted, of sexual assault and he still got hired. I'm not saying it excuses Bienemy's past behavior at Colorado or means he should get hired. I do feel that Patricia more or less skated through those allegations after one cycle of news stories about it in the media.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Motor City Sonics]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

that was 1987...

That is interesting,  It seems to me, in my observation, that kind of thing was FAR more scandalous in 1987 than it is today.   I mean, marijuana is legal in half the country and people these days have come to expect that you might have made some mistakes in your past.   And example would be 1992 Bill Clinton and the scandal of "I didn't inhale" and 2008 Barack Obama saying "I did inhale, that was the point"      In 1988 Laremy Tunsil smoking pot on a video probably ruins him.  In 2016 the guy drafting him for the Dolphins says on national TV "I smoked pot in college too, I'm doing alright.".    People are far more forgiving for a lot of behavior now than they used to be.   Just don't make a bad joke about a specific group of people, even if you're a comedian who has spent a whole career being offensive for a laugh.     I guess a Black guy has to be a friggin' Boy Scout to break in to the private club.  

[Motown Bombers]

7 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

That is interesting,  It seems to me, in my observation, that kind of thing was FAR more scandalous in 1987 than it is today.   I mean, marijuana is legal in half the country and people these days have come to expect that you might have made some mistakes in your past.   And example would be 1992 Bill Clinton and the scandal of "I didn't inhale" and 2008 Barack Obama saying "I did inhale, that was the point"      In 1988 Laremy Tunsil smoking pot on a video probably ruins him.  In 2016 the guy drafting him for the Dolphins says on national TV "I smoked pot in college too, I'm doing alright.".    People are far more forgiving for a lot of behavior now than they used to be.   Just don't make a bad joke about a specific group of people, even if you're a comedian who has spent a whole career being offensive for a laugh.     I guess a Black guy has to be a friggin' Boy Scout to break in to the private club.  

Eric Bieniemy has been arrested and convicted for assault, pleaded no contest to shoving a firefighter, arrested for assaulted a female parking attendant and banned by the University of Colorado for a year, arrested for DUI and had numerous driver's license suspensions, and was linked to using prostitutes to recruit players to Colorado. The guy is just being held to such high standards. 

[RedRamage]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

Uh oh

 

This should come as a shock to absolutely no one.  Everyone knew that Quinn wanted Patricia every more than everyone knew that Millen wanted Mooch.

This is one area where the Rooney Rule just isn't going to fit and you're checking the boxes to say that you did it.  Looking, Austin wasn't hired because he wasn't white, he wasn't hired because he wasn't Patricia.  Skin color had nothing to do with it.

I don't think there would be any evidence that race was a factor and if the team followed the rules of the Rooney Rule there should be no negative consequences from that.  Austin got and interview and had an opportunity to change their minds... he might argue that no matter how well he did in the interview he was never going to get the job, but any white coach not named Matt Patricia would have been in the same boat.  It may (snort) for Quinn to do that, but it was stupidity, not racism that made that happen.

[RedRamage]

1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I'd be curious to see Austin's response to all candidates having been asked the same series of questions, but this just feels like a whole lot of bitter nothingness to me.

To be fair, this is Austin's Agent making the claim, not Austin himself. 

[RedRamage]

25 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Matt Patricia was accused, but never prosecuted, of sexual assault and he still got hired. I'm not saying it excuses Bienemy's past behavior at Colorado or means he should get hired. I do feel that Patricia more or less skated through those allegations after one cycle of news stories about it in the media.

FWIW, (this assumes the allegations against both are true) I would thing that covering up sexual assault by a team is a greater crime (from an organization's stand point) than committing sexual assault.