POLITICS SCHMALITICS

[oblong]

Happy Thanksgiving. 
 

 

[Tigeraholic1]

49 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

It's the mother's choice.

End of discussion.

Hail mother.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

It's the mother's choice.

End of discussion.

I am a lot less interested in what men think about abortion than what women think about abortion.  In fact, I am very confident that if men were the ones that gave birth, the feelings about abortion would be radically different. 

[CMRivdogs]

43 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I am a lot less interested in what men think about abortion than what women think about abortion.  In fact, I am very confident that if men were the ones that gave birth, the feelings about abortion would be radically different. 

I think there should be a tradeoff. For every abortion a man gets a vasectomy. Preferably the father.

[buddha]

14 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I am a lot less interested in what men think about abortion than what women think about abortion.  In fact, I am very confident that if men were the ones that gave birth, the feelings about abortion would be radically different. 

if a woman thinks its ok to have an abortion in the 8th month of pregnancy, does that mean its ok?  i would argue no.

and historically, women's positions on abortion are only slightly more favorable toward it than men.  as you might guess, a lot of men are BIG abortion fans cause they dont want to have babies when they have casual sex.

[Tiger337]

Quote

if a woman thinks its ok to have an abortion in the 8th month of pregnancy, does that mean its ok?

No, but I think that's an extreme opinion not shared by many.  I think the only time that might be OK if the baby has no chance to live and the woman's life is in danger.  I am thinking more of pro-lifers who think it's never ok to have an abortion even less than a week into the pregnancy.   

Quote

and historically, women's positions on abortion are only slightly more favorable toward it than men.  as you might guess, a lot of men are BIG abortion fans cause they dont want to have babies when they have casual sex.

I believe pro-life is, at least sub-consciously, tied to the idea that it's sinful for women to have sex outside of marriage, but less so for men.  So, I think abortion would be viewed differently if men were the carriers.  Also, like you said, men don't want to have babies after casual sex.  I also think men would also not want to be inconvenienced by having to carry a baby for nine months.  

[buddha]

46 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

No, but I think that's an extreme opinion not shared by many.  I think the only time that might be OK if the baby has no chance to live and the woman's life is in danger.  I am thinking more of pro-lifers who think it's never ok to have an abortion even less than a week into the pregnancy.   

I believe pro-life is, at least sub-consciously, tied to the idea that it's sinful for women to have sex outside of marriage, but less so for men.  So, I think abortion would be viewed differently if men were the carriers.  Also, like you said, men don't want to have babies after casual sex.  I also think men would also not want to be inconvenienced by having to carry a baby for nine months.  

do you think there is any chance that people in the pro life movement think that abortion is taking a human life, and that taking a human life is wrong?  i imagine a lot of people think that way.

[gehringer_2]

16 minutes ago, buddha said:

do you think there is any chance that people in the pro life movement think that abortion is taking a human life, and that taking a human life is wrong?  i imagine a lot of people think that way.

two things: If you live in a democracy and the half the people don't agree with you, you have be content with the law not matching your version of morality. The legality of abortion doesn't require anyone who thinks it's a sin to get one.

2nd: biology has given mothers a pretty unique position with regard to bearing children. Given that historically the position of law wrt women has been more abusive than morally honest, I still trust a woman with the responsibility for the moral responsibility of whatever choice is made regarding her pregnancy more than I do the state.

[buddha]

7 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

two things: If you live in a democracy and the half the people don't agree with you, you have be content with the law not matching your version of morality. The legality of abortion doesn't require anyone who thinks it's a sin to get one.

2nd: biology has given mothers a pretty unique position with regard to bearing children. Given that historically the position of law wrt women has been more abusive than morally honest, I still trust a woman with the responsibility for the moral responsibility of whatever choice is made regarding her pregnancy more than I do the state.

1) sure.  but its a democracy so if the law isnt what you want it to be, you try to mobilize voters to change the law.

or, you could rely on the supreme court to make the law for you.  which most people love when they agree with the court and hate when they dont.  liberals and conservatives both.

2) ok.  but you dont think killing a human fetus is murder.  i get that.  but to someone who does, it doesnt matter who makes the choice because the choice is murder or not murder.

Edited November 25, 2021 by buddha

[Tiger337]

58 minutes ago, buddha said:

do you think there is any chance that people in the pro life movement think that abortion is taking a human life, and that taking a human life is wrong?  i imagine a lot of people think that way.

Of course they think that way, but how did it come to that point?  It is obvious why people are disturbed when they see see little tiny humans with body parts taken out.  How can you not be affected by that even if you are pro-choice?  That is not most abortions though.    What about much earlier when there is no appearance of life at all?  What happens at conception which makes it a person?  

[Tiger337]

46 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

2nd: biology has given mothers a pretty unique position with regard to bearing children. Given that historically the position of law wrt women has been more abusive than morally honest, I still trust a woman with the responsibility for the moral responsibility of whatever choice is made regarding her pregnancy more than I do the state.

If anyone has a good understanding of when a person becomes a person, it would be a woman.  

[Mr.TaterSalad]

4 hours ago, buddha said:

do you think there is any chance that people in the pro life movement think that abortion is taking a human life, and that taking a human life is wrong?  i imagine a lot of people think that way.

No, because most of those people support the death penalty in spite of the fact that innocent people have been put to death over the years. Additionally, many pro life activists on the right are the first people to scream and holler about people mooching off the welfare system. They are some of the most vocal critics of programs like WIC, SNAP, TANF (AFDC), and Medicaid that help keep people subsisting and living.

Many in the pro life movement also believe that gay, lesbian, transgendered, and non-binary people are condemned to a life of sin that will ultimately lead them to going to hell. They view LGBTQIA people as less than in some cases, looking at them as not only immoral sinners, but almost animalistic creatures.

Meanwhile, they have no problem donating billions of dollars and making a cottage industry of the very God they claim to support while millions go hungry or without adequate medical care. They do this by giving their money to and propping up grifters like Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Jim and Tammy Faye Baker, Jimmy Swaggert, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, and their mega churches.

None of that sounds very pro life to me.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Tiger337]

There is indeed an inconsistency with so many of the pro-life people being pro-death penalty.  

[Archie]

22 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I am a lot less interested in what men think about abortion than what women think about abortion.  In fact, I am very confident that if men were the ones that gave birth, the feelings about abortion would be radically different. 

If men were the ones that gave birth then we would become extinct.

[Tiger337]

1 minute ago, Archie said:

If men were the ones that gave birth then we would become extinct.

I am not sure what you mean by that, but it appears there might be some agreement!

[Archie]

4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I am not sure what you mean by that, but it appears there might be some agreement!

It was meant as a joke.  I have several kids and seeing what my wife went through is nothing I would want to do.  I think most men feel that way.

[Tiger337]

19 minutes ago, Archie said:

It was meant as a joke.  I have several kids and seeing what my wife went through is nothing I would want to do.  I think most men feel that way.

I agree.  Women tend to be a lot more selfless.  

[buddha]

26 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I agree.  Women tend to be a lot more selfless.  

lol.  how many women do you know?  women are just as selfish as men because women are human beings with the same motivations as men.  

sheesh, people.

[Tiger337]

23 minutes ago, buddha said:

lol.  how many women do you know?  women are just as selfish as men because women are human beings with the same motivations as men.  

sheesh, people.

I know lots of women.  Some are selfish.  In general, they are less selfish than men.  

[Tigeraholic1]

Lee, I agree that a woman should be able to do with her body as she pleases and the law says that and I respect that. 

I was speaking more to the idea of a  fetus and a baby both are one in the same but catagorized differently. Do they both have heart beats? Individual DNA? I just HATE the argument "Ugggh you can't call it a baby yet, its just a fetus". Sceince would call a fetus a living being, but thats not convenient in this conversation. We can all agree a very large percentage of left leaning folks are Athiest or pick and choose what part of Christianity that is convientent enough to say the are believers. My point being we paint a fetus to be a blob of tissue so no need to call it a baby until one amazing day its not the same as it was yesterday. l call BS if you follow the sceince....

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Tigeraholic1

[buddha]

8 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Lee, I agree that a woman should be able to do with her body as she pleases and the law says that and I respect that. 

I was speaking more to the idea of a  fetus and a baby both are one in the same but catagorized differently. Do they both have heart beats? Individual DNA? I just HATE the argument "Ugggh you can't call it a baby yet, its just a fetus". Sceince would call a fetus a living being, but thats not convenient in this conversation. We can all agree a very large percentage of left leaning folks are Athiest or pick and choose what part of Christianity that is convientent enough to say the are believers. My point being we paint a fetus to be a blob of tissue so no need to call it a baby until one amazing day its not the same as it was yesterday. l call BS if you follow the sceince....

 

but its not just her body, there is another "body" inside her.

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Lee, I agree that a woman should be able to do with her body as she pleases and the law says that and I respect that. 

I was speaking more to the idea ofa  fetus and a baby both are one in the same but catagorized differently. Do they both have heart beats? Individual DNA? I just HATE the argument "Ugggh you can't call it a baby yet, its just a fetus". Sceince would call a fetus a living being, but thats not convenient in this conversation. We can all agree a very large percentage of left leaning folks are Athiest or pick and choose what part of Christianity that is convientent enough to say the are believers. My point being we paint a fetus to be a blob of tissue so no need to call it a baby until one amazing day its not the same as it was yesterday. l call BS if you follow the sceince....

 

The problem with the way you put the argument is that you can make exactly the same argument and get the opposite result if you start at the other end. Two germ cells are nothing more than 2 germ cells, they are no different that one of the millions of skin cells you shed every day. At some point you have a blastula. An undifferentiated mass not particularly biologically different from a polyp you may have snipped during a colonoscopy. Then "suddenly" its a fetus = a baby. So where is the change? You can't get an answer from 'science' here because the science only tells you that *all* cells are *alive* ( in the sense of have duplicative potential )  and carry genetic potential. To make an even more arch observation - a human fetus probably carries something like >90% of the same DNA as a rat. So the moral dimensions of the question do  not really lie in the biology.

[Tigeraholic1]

2 minutes ago, buddha said:

but its not just her body, there is another "body" inside her.

Agreed, I was trying to set that aside with my argument. Most these guys just shutdown as soon as you bring up the subject.

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Agreed, I was trying to set that aside with my argument. Most these guys just shutdown as soon as you bring up the subject.

I used to think the the competing rights and irreparable harm legal concepts were sufficient to get the answer. If the rights of the mother and the fetus conflict the question of which's rights prevail is answered by which suffers the most irreparable harm from the given action. By that analysis you have a straightforward call. But like most overly simple answers, I don't see it as sufficient to the question anymore.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

I used to think the the competing rights and irreparable harm legal concepts were sufficient to get the answer. If the rights of the mother and the fetus conflict the question of which's rights prevail is answered by which suffers the most irreparable harm from the given action. By that analysis you have a straightforward call. But like most overly simple answers, I don't see it as sufficient to the question anymore.

i agree, which is why something simple like "my body my choice" is equally as unconvincing.