gehringer_2 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 8 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: Continue to bleach history until it conforms to the new narrative. yeah - and he probably plagiarized John Locke..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasTiger Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 (edited) Didn't people already get pissed off about this back in 2021 when it happened? I seem to remember it on the old board. Oops, too slow Edited January 27 by VegasTiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Biden and Dump as buddies. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, VegasTiger said: Didn't people already get pissed off about this back in 2021 when it happened? I seem to remember it on the old board. Oops, too slow Nope, my 15 yo son is studying U.S. History and he is doing a research paper on the New York Historic Society. He asked me why would American's feel better if we removed a statue of a U.S. president. I just posted what I told him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, GoBlue23 said: You know you're getting freshly outraged over something done 3 years ago, right? Additionally, I'm wondering what the "new narrative" is? The new narrative is whatever we want people to view history in the modern context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 I say don't remove any presidential statues... Unless they make one of Dump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: The new narrative is whatever we want people to view history in the modern context. the mistake is lionizing persons in history in the 1st place. We over personalize history. A lot of the finest people never do anything that makes the history books but they are probably the people that should be looked to as role models. People that do things that move history are often flawed - it's often part of what drives them to extraordinary lives. What they did should be celebrated, not who they may have been. That Jefferson may have be been a jerk in private life affected a few people in his immediate circle. What he *did* in public life has changed the lives of probably billions. There is no need to conflate the different values of the two things. Celebrate the deeds, not the man, and all these problems around the 'valuing' of historical figures largely go away. Edited January 27 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 42 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: Nope, my 15 yo son is studying U.S. History and he is doing a research paper on the New York Historic Society. He asked me why would American's feel better if we removed a statue of a U.S. president. I just posted what I told him. You need to bring him (and the rest of the family) to Williamsburg for a few days. Some of the programs here with the actor/historian "Nation Builders" are very informative and will give you a new perspective on what those of a certain age were taught in school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 21 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: the mistake is lionizing persons in history in the 1st place. We over personalize history. A lot of the finest people never do anything that makes the history books but they are probably the people that should be looked to as role models. People that do things that move history are often flawed - it's often part of what drives them to extraordinary lives. What they did should be celebrated, not who they may have been. That Jefferson may have be been a jerk in private life affected a few people in his immediate circle. What he *did* in public life has changed the lives of probably billions. There is no need to conflate the different values of the two things. Celebrate the deeds, not the man, and all these problems around the 'valuing' of historical figures largely go away. i also suspect that being what Virginia's manumission laws were at the time and knowing that Jefferson stayed deeply in debt also played into his decision. I know the Washington's' ran into similar issues when they discussed freeing George's slaves upon his death. Martha had no legal right to free the Custis slaves. She had management of the estate but legal rights belonged to her grandchildren once they became of age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 34 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: Not sure what that means. Anyways, I think removing a statue of Jefferson is stupid and an example of some people just needing to find something to be upset about. As for Confederate statues, every single one should be torn down. I agree. Not everything is a single decision point and doing one stupid thing means it’s all stupid things. I can state that Eastern Michigan getting rid of Huron as a mascot was idiotic while sayings it’s racist to use redskins and Indians and Braves. There’s no contradiction. We shouldn’t keep up statues of those who fought against the nation because we think some other group went too far with Jefferson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 4 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: Jefferson owned 600 or so slaves. That's certainly more than "a few people" and I'm guessing that's why so many people have issues with him. Whatever the number it still pales in comparison with his public political impact. A person may do a great thing or even things, they may or not be a 'great' person. There is no necessary connection and to make one simply leads to pointless manufacturversy like this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Just now, GoBlue23 said: I'm not disputing that but I can't blame black people for not holding him in such high regard either. Sure, but they still should understand that it was Jefferson's language in the DOI that set up the contradiction of principles with the early Constitution that was finally rectified by war and amendments. Or to pull it closer to home - I never cared much for Jim Harbaugh the man, I'm still celebrating the UM victory. So what we are left with is what is the proper mode of remembrance? Is there something inherent in statuary that necessarily puts it over the top into idolatry? Maybe - the Hebrews thought so a couple thousand years ago. 🤔 And of course we definitely don't need the statue of Bo Schembechler in Ann Arbor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Lot of rumors about Harbaugh potentially hiring Kapernick as a coach now that he's the Chargers coach. That'll be an awesome something. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 (edited) if we're looking to literal statues for history education we got bigger issues my daughter has been learning history from books and teachers and they seem to have a lot more awareness than statues Edited January 27 by pfife 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Statues aren't supposed to teach history. They're supposed to display reverence to a figure or object that may not even be historical. If the figure or object is no longer revered there's no need to continue revering it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 I learned a lot about Thomas Jefferson by listening to a free series on Audible "Greatest Courses" or something like that about the Greatest Presidents and it was by Alan Lichtman https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/great-presidents IDK it Audible still has it free but I think Oblong would love that series, it was really great 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, pfife said: Statues aren't supposed to teach history. They're supposed to display reverence to a figure or object that may not even be historical. If the figure or object is no longer revered there's no need to continue revering it Not today, but we inherit deep cultural habits that we may sense only subliminally and for ages in the preliterate past, statuary and iconagraphy were part of how a culture passed down and recorded it's history. That is probably part of why we have such a cultural habit of making statues. They are after all, at one level just a representational form that predates almost all others - in that sense no different than a photograph in a history book. But that's just it - for some reason statues take on much more baggage than that. Partly because they are no longer needed as memory store objects, partly because the effort to make one represents an investment in the object's significance, and also I suppose because sculpture in the hands of an artist can communicate far more than simple representation. And I guess that's where the reverence part gets generated. Edited January 27 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 (edited) Someone decided it was Jackie Robinson’s day to be removed. https://apple.news/A3wnyvg2VT1GhZRBiI6_Tbg Edited January 27 by 1776 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 1 hour ago, 1776 said: Someone decided it was Jackie Robinson’s day to be removed. https://apple.news/A3wnyvg2VT1GhZRBiI6_Tbg You spelled stolen wrong 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Given that New York was on the winning side of the War About Slaves, I’d say they have every right to remove a statue on their territory of a slaveholder whose philosophy about the sanctity of states’ rights likely helped foment the war in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 Biden's weaponized DOJ pursuing more criminal cases...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 On 1/27/2024 at 2:53 PM, 1776 said: Someone decided it was Jackie Robinson’s day to be removed. https://apple.news/A3wnyvg2VT1GhZRBiI6_Tbg They found it. It was dismantled and burned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 I could see some kids getting drunk and leaving it somewhere. It wouldn't be excusable, but stuff like that happens. For someone to take it apart and then burn it, that is creepy and hateful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 5 hours ago, Tiger337 said: I could see some kids getting drunk and leaving it somewhere. It wouldn't be excusable, but stuff like that happens. For someone to take it apart and then burn it, that is creepy and hateful. Trump's America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Wow, you decriminalized drugs and create a self induced crisis. Nobody saw that coming. https://apnews.com/article/fentanyl-state-of-emergency-oregon-afc46aca7de7fbef121b6832e0275f3a At the state level, Oregon lawmakers have introduced a new bill that would undo a key part of the state’s drug decriminalization law. Public opinion has soured on it as public drug use has become more visible because of growing homelessness. https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/homeless/fentanyl-oregonians-portland-emergency-central-city/283-bc97fda8-eff5-4148-95e7-77ff12b1a02f James Pritchard smoked a cigarette outside a Beaverton homeless shelter on Wednesday morning. He says fentanyl is always at his fingertips, whether he wants it or not. “Unbeknownst to me I had gotten some coke, and it was mainly fentanyl… I overdosed and almost died,” Pritchard said. “Fentanyl is everywhere…People are dying every day from it,” added his friend Ronald Hastenpayne, who stays at the Beaverton shelter because he couldn’t find an available bed in Multnomah County. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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